How to kill yourself without trying

[LewisM]

I nearly did.

Needed to clean the outdoor tiled entertainment area before the big move out. There are some tannin and rust stains on it, and seeing the tiles have an antislip coating, these are a pain to remove.

So, the backyard dodgy chemist in me lays downs some hydrochloric acid and start scrubbing with a stiff broom.

Well, I expect the HCl is reacting nicely with the calcium carbonate in the tile grout, and I am slowly enshrouded in chlorine or some variant thereof, considering the airflow in this area is nill at the best of times. WHOA!!!

Now, I am also assuming this concoction of halides is turning into hypochlorous acid or similar in my trachea, ripping mucousal membranes assunder, as in no time I am hacking up and vomiting. I cannot get away from it fast enough, but realise I HAVE to return to wash the bloody thing off and stop it from poisoning the known universe! I stood back with the hose a LONG way away and with a towel wrapped around my head.

For the next 12 hours I had rales and wheezes, continual spitting as my mucous membranes repaired, and a pain in my right lung, which only by the sheer luck of the Irish did NOT turn into a pulmonary oedema! I ALMOST rang 000, but didn't, and my wife watched me all night.

And I missed some good astronomy. :(

I had done this before, SUCCESSFULLY, but for some odd reason this one went awry - new brand of HCl (not Diggers as usual, got the Bondall one) and just bad luck and stupidity. Time will tell what damage was done, but for the second time in my life I really felt I would not make it through the night.

[rmuhlack]

whoa - not cool man. I get asthma sometime - struggling to catch a breath can be frightening I know.

Maybe worth going to see the doc in the next day or so to get checked out, esp if you don't feel better soon. You don't want a lung infection

[Profiler]

Lewis

You should go to a doctor and will probably need a few scans as there are quite a few things that can wrong from such an experience wherein you might feel okay at the moment but may manifest later on - especially if you are planing travel in a plane in the not too distant future.

[LewisM]

Already been, and they are monitoring. Lots of tests done. Lung function seems normal.

I still have muscle pain in my chest from all the violent muscle contractions from the coughing and vomiting.

Nasty shiat!

Next time, I will use the proper tile and grout cleaner :) Or maybe caustic soda (I know how that reacts)

[bojan]

I inhaled HCl fumes (but only briefly) while etching my own printed circuit boards in the past (was using the mix of H2O2 and HCl - very fast method, eats almost anything, even stainless steel)..
It was a terrible experience..

[el_draco]

I teach chemistry. Get your bum to a doctor. :eyepop:

[Stardrifter_WA]

Lewis, you should seek medical advice immediately, or at the very least ring the Poisons advice section in your telephone emergency numbers, for advice.

I am surprised that, knowing the chemical reactions of these products so well, that many people fail to consider getting the right respirator mask and the correct filter. But to be fair, I suppose having worked in the safety industry, as a PPE and signage auditor, I know about such things.

This is a cautionary tale for others:

When I recently bought Hydrochloric Acid from Bunnings, I asked for the Material Safety Data Sheet (MSDS). To my utter surprise they could not easily produce one on request, and by law, they have to have an MSDS readily available for anything that contains any type of chemical. And this goes for your local supermarkets as well. So many do not even know what an MSDS is.

I told Bunnings that if they cannot produce one I will have to report this to Worksafe, as is required under WA legislation under the General Duty of Care. They eventually did produce an MSDS which they, apparently had to be emailed to them, whilst I waited about 20 minutes.

The MSDS should ALWAYS be consulted when using hazardous chemicals, as it gives all the details needed to understand how to use these chemicals SAFELY and the hazards associated with using such chemicals. ALWAYS refer to these MSDS and following the rquirements for their use.

The MSDS and its recommendations are for YOUR personal safety, as this incident with Lewis clearly demonstrates, and should ALWAYS be consulted before use.

Hope you are OK Lewis.

Cheers Peter

[el_draco]

Its not that simple. Concentrated inhalation of anything can do major damage to your lungs. Caustic Soda can also be quite lethal.

If the area is not well ventilated, do a small section and get the hell out of there. Also pick a windy day; the turbulence may help.

[skytry]

hey Lewis,
no NEXT time,
get the contractor in, it would be cheaper,
regards,
Peter.

[rat156]

Sorry to pick Peter, they're just called SDS now. They are available for all products sold in Australian retail outlets from the manufacturer, usually their website, so a couple of minutes on the internet should be enough to find one.

But ...

The information available in one of these things is usually too much for laypeople. For your reading pleasure I've attached the one for HCl from the Diggers HCl. There's a lot of information in it, just mostly useless.

People are FAR better off just reading the bottle, there are clear instructions for the type of PPE that people should use.

As for this particular case, I'm pretty sure that Lewis has generated Chlorine, probably some left over hypochlorite from some bleach in the grout, add HCl, hey presto, Chlorine gas.

Luckily the effects of Chlorine gas exposure are mostly repairable, unless you get a really big lung full, in which a pulmonary oedema is a distinct possibility.

I'm not a fan of (M)SDSs I use some very nasty chemicals every work day, the SDS are in the lab for legal compliance, no one looks at them unless we are checking to see if they are in date.

Cheers
Stuart

[LewisM]

I think there may have been residual sodium hypochlorite from when I last bleached the tiles. Voila, instant chlorine generator.

Got another quack appointment in 20 minutes, see how things are. All seems repairing very well. Thankfully, never did have burning eyes etc, so escaped that nastiness.

My great grandfather was gassed in WW1 (I know, mustard gas is sulphur and chlorine, but kinda similar) and suffered for the rest of his life with pulmonary problems, succumbing to pneumonia after WW2. I can imagine now just how wretched, inhumane a way to die it was!

[TrevorW]

As we all do when using any potentially dangerous chemical wear a good quality air filter mask and safety glasses :)

[rat156]

Just make sure the filter will filter out the bad stuff. Chlorine gas will go straight through most commercial respirator cartridges. So wearing one is next to useless, in fact may be harmful as you have a false sense of security.

Most cartridges sold in Bunnings and the like are good for organic compounds only (paint fumes etc), most will not stop HCl gas or chlorine. Read the instructions. If in doubt ask someone, though I'm not sure the Bunnings people will know. Don't forget to change the cartridges out as well if you're working for extended periods of time as well. Also once opened to the atmosphere, they lose their effectiveness, so once you're finished throw the cartridges away so you're not tempted to reuse them.

Cheers
Stuart

[rat156]

Mustard gas is not that similar to chlorine actually. It's also not a gas at normal temperatures. Respiratory effects of mustard exposure are usually reversible, unless the lungs are heavily scarred. From the sounds of things you GGF was probably exposed to phosgene, which had similar effects, but the effects were more long lasting.

Cheers
Stuart

[LewisM]

Had a chest Xray today, and all clear - no damage, no oedema. Seems the pain is more diaphragm and pectoralis muscles from the violent convulsive coughing and vomiting.

Situation normal, back to work :)

[Profiler]

Lewis

I am happy to hear this result but it may be worthwhile having another X-Ray or CT in about another 4 weeks time.

[Stardrifter_WA]

Hi Stuart,

Yes, I totally agree.

You are correct that they are now known as SDS by Worksafe Australia, however, they are also know as PSDS (P being for Product), as well MSDS (still in common use), depending on point of origin, it seems. But that is mere semantics anyway.

Yes, these safety data sheets can be technical, however, I totally disagree that they are useless for the layperson, as you state, as the pertinent section on use of Personal Protect Equipment (PPE) and the hazards associated are VERY relevant to anyone using chemicals of any nature. Labels are well and good, but often hard to read or do not contain all the necessary info.

But, I do agree that not all of the SDS available are that informative either, some a very lacking whilst others are too detailed. I only know that I ALWAYS refer to them, as to have some information is better than none. To advocate that they are just useless is dangerous, or just careless. After all, unless we are chemical engineers, how else will we know. The only section I personally look at, these days, on an SDS (MSDS) are its hazards and appropriate PPE, not the scientific data, which most people would not understand, in that I do agree.

Furthermore, I do agree that the SDS can be useless too. I know that using Diphenylmethane Diisocyanate (MDI) requires an air-line respirator system, under Austrlian legislation, however, the MSDS did not state that. I prevented the possible deaths of two people who were going to use MDI within a confined space without the use of airline and were going to use a particle filter respirator instead. Fortunately, at the time, I had to understand legislative requirements. Using chemicals in confined spaces is dangerous any time.

Many years ago, it was through the use of an MSDS that I discovered that using 'methyl ethyl ketone' (commonly known as MEK) was really nasty stuff. We changed the process to eliminate the use of this solvent altogether and introduced steam baths. It was a great solution and was much more economical in the long run anyway, not to forget that it is environmentally friendly too.

I understand that you use many dangerous chemicals, as it is part of your job. The average person doesn't have a hope to gain that level of understanding and that is where an SDS is most useful. After all, we can't afford to pay an expert to advise us each time we use a new chemical.

Cheers Peter

[Stardrifter_WA]

Good to hear Lewis, you were lucky.

Cheers Peter

[Baddad]

Hi Lewis,
A lesson learnt the hard way. However I expect it to be learnt well.:)

On MSDS's, : Years ago I was working in the pest control industry. I introduced rodenticides into ceiling cavities.

I made the mistake of sometimes giving a copy of the MSDS to the customer. The customer with their infinite wisdom, knowledge and reading skills determine that the product was an explosive substance. "How dare you put an explosive in my ceiling?"

Just because the MSDS mentions the product's explosive properties (which is almost nil) the "highly intelligent" customer determines it is highly dangerous.

Also those customers did not own any telescopes.:lol: But there were some astrology magazines about.

Cheers

[rat156]

Hi Peter,

I don't think I said that the SDS was totally useless, I just said that there's a wealth of information on one, much of which a layperson would not understand. Sometime the provision of all this information, much of which, on the first page is quite technical, turns people off reading the important bits, so they don't read them. This negates any good that they do.

I have similar arguments with our OHS people all the time, they are big on SDSs, I point out that much of the information is not relevant to everyday situations and that this information "dilutes" the good stuff to the point of ineffectiveness.

Labelling laws have been tightened up recently in Aus, so there should be PPE and safety information on all but the smallest containers of chemicals, particularly those destined for the consumer market.

Sometimes just large (friendly) letters on the front saying things like "don't drink", "wear XX type of respirator" etc are far more effective means of communication than a five page document.

I'm not a chemical engineer either. You don't need to pay someone to advise you each time you use a new chemical either, RTFL (read the label), if you still are unsure there's a phone number to call the manufacturer. You would probably be pleasantly surprised that they'll help.

But, I think that we basically agree on everything, just a slightly different viewpoint.

Oh, and if anyone on IIS is concerned about a chemical that they are using, or plan to use, feel free to contact me, if I can give advice (i.e. if I know the dangers of the chemical) then I'll happily give it.

Cheers
Stuart

[GrahamL]

Good you'll be ok lewis:thumbsup:





slightly understated Stue:lol:


Been collecting and filing these dust bunnies for a decade or more and very occasionally I'll have a browse , particularly if its a new chemical
but theres not much info there of use to most common situations .
I am a bigger fan of keeping labels and explaining there use to staff as a starting point.

[Ric]

Hi Lewis

Glad to hear your on the mend, it sounds like a close call.

[LewisM]

Feeling fine, thanks everyone. Still sore chest muscles, but small price to pay. Doctor suggested next time I unintentionally make Sarin or Mustard Gas instead...

He did mention the effects of chlorine poisoning are usually TOTALLY repairable over time, unless you get a fatal dose, of course ;)

[AstralTraveller]

Lewis, when you changed brands of HCl did you check that the concentrations were the same? It will be on the bottle somewhere in %w/v or just g/l. I haven't looked at commercial HCl so I don't know what range is available.

SDS or MSDS or whatever are very important, as is the need for the reader to have some knowledge. I've just looked at some safety instructions for one of my 'favorite' hazards, liquid nitrogen. Looking at the SDS of one supplier I am informed that one should:

"Avoid inhalation. Use in well ventilated areas. Where an inhalation risk exists, mechanical explosion proof extraction ventilation is recommended." Really?

Under 'Spillage' I am told to check for leaks using a pressure drop test or soapy water and under 'Fire and explosion' I am informed that fire may cause the cylinder to rupture. Someone doesn't know the difference between gas and liquid.

I should wear safety boots. Fair enough, but nowhere will you be told that liquid nitrogen will not go through leather or gore tex but will go through mesh-top shoes as if they weren't there (and then pool on the sole). If I have been handling it I should wash hands before eating. :screwy:

At least they recognise that the vapour may cause asphyxiation. However they then go on to list a bunch of symptoms that people who have been asphyxiated but then rescued before any lasting harm was done did not experience. No gasping for breath, no nausea, vomiting etc. Just collapse and then - if not rescued - die.

I imagine that most SDSs are better than that but some are much worse. Try finding good information about CCl3 or BrF5.