Help buying first Astrophotog Telescope with budget of $1-1.5K

[mtfreestyler]

Hi Guys,

I'm finally taking the plunge and would love some input from the you.

I have decided on a NEQ6 mount but now I need a scope.

I have no real preference for what design the scope is but I like to buy things that I won't need to upgrade for a while (hence the NEQ6 as a first mount)

I am a bit of a perfectionist with my photos so this also doesn't help.

I am thinking of one of the NEQ6 bundles at the bottom of this page might be ok.
http://www.astropetes.com.au/telescopes.html

My budget for the scope is anywhere from $1000 to $1500 but obviously there is always wiggle room if someone convinces me

I already have a Canon 7D and a Canon 5DmkIII that I will be able to use

Thanks for any input

Matt

[Camelopardalis]

Hi Matt and :welcome: to Ice in Space!

Before factoring in cost, you will need to consider your intended targets as different telescopes have different focal lengths and therefore frame subjects differently. Not to mention their differing setup and maintenance routines.

For example, there are large targets such as Eta Carinae, the Magellanic Clouds, regions in the centre of the MW especially that are spectacular in a wide field scope. Alternatively, a longer focal length instrument will so individual objects in those areas along with countless others dotted around the sky. The Universe is your canvas, but your choice of telescope will determine which subjects are framed best.

[rustigsmed]

hi matt,

as Dunk as mentioned different scopes are better for different targets.
I would suggest an 8" reflector ($450 on the website you linked or $750 for the carbon fibre) as they are bit of an allrounder. Take a look at Justin tillbrook photos at what is achievable with a similar setup.

obviously with that it leaves a lot of extra $ left over, but once you factor in other accessories - especially for guiding images it will dry up very quickly.

- coma corrector (eg, baader MPCC or RCC I)
- Off axis guider (eg TSOAG9)
- guide camera. (eg lodestar, Qhy5 ii, asi 120mm)
- light pollution filter (eg astronomic cls-ccd)
- shoestring usb shutter control
- upgraded focuser (eg moonlite or feathertouch)

cheers

rusty

[dannat]

have you had a telescope/mount before
i suggest you seek out the asv or mpas astro society's & talk to the imagers there

[mtfreestyler]

Sorry guys I really should have mentioned what I was hoping to take photos of.

I intend on being able to image things like the Orion nebula M42, Comet Lovejoy, Horsehead and flame and planets. Also wouldn't mind doing some mosaics of the moon. Nebulae are my favorite though due the colours and variety.

If only there was an easy way to let you know what focal range I want

I have been to the last ASV star b que where I spoke to a few people about their setups and that is why I'm pretty set with the NEQ6 but it has been a while since then and can't remember their recommendations on scopes.

I know there is a lot more to buy after the scope but this is just the budget for the scope and I will be adding more later on and I will budget that then.

Thanks for the replies

[Camelopardalis]

Yeah the focal length of the scope makes a lot of difference to the image scale, for example I use a scope of ~350mm focal length to squeeze in Carina and Andromeda but there are lots of smaller objects that would be framed better in an 8" f/4 newt with ~800mm focal length. Orion nebula probably being one of them.

Ultimately, if you get into AP you're probably going to end up with a couple of scopes of different focal lengths for the different targets, it's just a question of what you pick first :P

[mtfreestyler]

Well when I was at the ASV Star b que I met SimmoW with his setup and from his posts it says he has a Takahashi E130D which is 430mm and I liked what he was getting pics of so maybe around the 400 mark to start.

A Tak is a little more than I would like to spend though

[killswitch]

If you already have zoom lenses for your 7D or 5D like a 70-200mm, you can start off with that. Lots of beautiful stuff in widefield.

[rustigsmed]

if you want a refractor then go with something like a skywatcher ED80. if want more aperture a 8"newt. the mount is generally considered the most important bit of kit anyhow.

[Camelopardalis]

For around the 400mm mark I'd suggest looking into the William Optics Star71 - it's a fairly new scope, but has some promising results over on Cloudy Nights, even with a full-frame camera. It is reasonably fast at f/4.9 with a focal length of ~350, and it'd give you a FOV a little under 6 degrees across.

The reason I know about this scope is I have my own eye on one :lol: I currently use the WO Zenithstar 71 which is the visual version that's been out a couple of years (that I use as a travel scope), but as the Zenithstar is only a doublet I get blue fringes around brighter stars. The Star71 is a triplet with two extra lenses for correcting/flattening the field so it'd give a nice sharp flat FOV.

[mtfreestyler]

I have got a zoom lens for the DSLR but it is a kit 75-300mm so I don't think I'll get many good pics.

I have been doing a lot of wide field photos already though. I mostly do timelapses so I have plenty of milky way photos.

I do believe I may be heading for a refractive scope but is the ED80 good enough? I have heard of some scopes being APO's and some triplets and would like to know what is the generally accepted best one of those in my price range for what I want to image

[mtfreestyler]

Thanks Dunk. I'm on my way home now but I'll look into that one for sure!

Damn thinking about it is getting exciting

[Camelopardalis]

Like Ed said, try your kit lens...stop it down a bit, until you can't see any lens inflicted wounds! On a tracking mount with a half decent polar alignment you should be good for 5+ minutes unguided. On a good night, I can get that with the Zenithstar on board.

When it comes to scopes, there are lots of choices. If Taks were cheap, we'd all buy them :lol: but having done some reading around this myself even THEY have their own set of issues. There's no perfect scope.

The Star71 is an interesting recent entrant into the market. It's hard to go wrong with an ED80, especially if the focal length hits the spot. It's a known quantity, proven. But you'd be wanting to upgrade the focuser pretty much straight off and then at f/7.5 the reducer is a good addition.

[mtfreestyler]

Sorry but after looking at the Star71 I think you may have sold me. It's beautiful!

Because it is 350mm can you get an attachment to increase that? Can Barlows be used?

Also do you have to buy them from overseas or is there an Aussie supplier? I can't find any so far with this one

[Camelopardalis]

:lol: yeah they make some beautiful scopes...the Zenithstar is similar only in red and white :)

It might be worth contacting Andrews Communications in Sydney as they sell a bunch of WO stuff, no doubt they could get one. Alternatively contact WO direct, as they would ship from the factory and you'd be less subject to US$ affected exchange rates.

I've no idea if you could use a Barlow though, I've never tried, but this is certainly an interesting point, but underscores why it's important to consider your choice and the focal length carefully. What I would do is calculate the FOV of your scopes of interest, and then use Sky Safari or Stellarium or similar to simulate how you would frame objects of interest.

[traveller]

Hi Matt,
Doublets like ED80 give good results and are proven performers. Triplets are great, but is heavier and pricier. Like everything, you get what you pay for. Reflectors have faster ratios, but tends to be less contrasty than refactors. They are very general comments, best to "try before you buy".
Bo

[mtfreestyler]

I've just sent off an email to both Andrew's and WO's website so I will wait for the response and go from there. Hopefully there is a good price from one of them as it is looking like around $1400AU so far.

Looks like people in other forums have been using Barlows so that can help a bit to make it more versatile.

I just set up the Oculars plugin in Stellarium and it looks pretty good so far with the 6 degrees. No doubt I will want more resolution one day but I'll just figure that out then.

Bo, After being a photographer for a while I don't think I want to give up contrast and since I do timelapses a lot I have patience to stick around for some more shots to add more data to a stack so if the scope isn't as fast as a reflector I should be able to make up for it.

[cometcatcher]

As much as I like refractors, I'd be a bit more than tempted to put an 8 or 10 inch Newt on an EQ6. ;)

[acropolite]

I'd recommend the ED80 as well, they come up from time to time second hand as well at bargain prices. Get the skywatcher reducer flattener and make sure you stay with the stock focusser as that will be needed for the Skywatcher reducer. The stock focuser may need some tuning, but it's easily done. There is also a wider T adapter available (Bintel have them) which will allow you to use the 5DIII sensor to its full capabilities. You mentioned M42 here is an unremarkable image 50% crop) taken with the ED80 SW Focal reducer 5DII. http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=111457 and one of M31 taken with the same gear uncropped. http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=111455

[bert]

Ed80 no question.

[sil]

I couldn't agree more. The OP is like many taking the plunge, they want a quality setup that will do work for all targets, on a budget that is unrealistic. The gear is irrelevant to some degree. Having a DSLR is meaningless. You can already photograph all the targets listed with what you have. Try finding out just how much effort is involved, its not like pointing your camera at your cat and pressing a button.

[mtfreestyler]

Ok so I have loaded the ED80 and the Star71 into Stellarium and have been comparing the 2 against all the well known nebulae to see what would suit better.

The ED80's 600mm looks like a great focal length and I'd like to be around there but if I get a Barlow could I use that on the Star71 to make it a 700mm scope?

What else would you shoot at a FOV around 6 degrees?

I think having the 7D with a crop sensor will help as well to get different effective focal lengths

[rustigsmed]

possibly you could, although I am not sure it is worth the effort.
focal ratio goes out to f 9.8, how good is the barlow glass you're putting in there ...? other potential issues adaptors? vignetting?
how are you guiding? OAG? standard camera lenses are quite capable of superb widefield already particularly when on a GEM.

eg done with an 85mm lens (mosaic)
http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=130260


I wouldn't worry re the ED80 it is plenty good enough; here is the most recent ED80 pic on the forum (DJScotty) - taken in narrowband http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/attachment_browse.php?a=176998

for the purpose of showing an 8" newt here is one of the same object - taken with dslr
http://s1172.photobucket.com/user/jtilbrook/media/eta80B1.jpg.html?sort=3&o=70


I would take on acropolite's recommendations - but then again if it were me i'd get a 8"newt and put the money into a proper astro camera :D


cheers

[Camelopardalis]

This is why I raised the importance of choosing carefully - there are so many targets out there and regardless of what anyone says, one scope will not do it all...which is why we often have more than one ;)

[mtfreestyler]

As beautiful as the WO Star71 is I am coming around to what you guys are saying and looking at others.

I am now thinking about this Vixen 800mm F4
http://www.myastroshop.com.au/products/details.asp?id=MAS-066G

Would this be a good choice for $1600?

I will most likely be getting more scopes eventually but as for taking the first plunge I would like it to be a good one and preferably in the deep end because I like steep learning curves

[rustigsmed]

Hi Matt,

Very very nice telescope, magnificent optics, optimised construction/build quality, the focusers are the only questionable element point as far as i am aware (in addition to the price). you will also 100% require a coma corrector at f4 so you need to take that into account with regard to the $$.

The baader mpcc (coma corrector) is about $320 new i think - i don't know about the vixen CC.

In comparison you could get a Skywatcher 8" f4 quattro carbon fibre for $999 from andrews communication or the 10" carbon fibre version for $1300 (both will need a coma corrector).

Or you could also get a SW black diamond (non carbon fibre) 8" for about $500-$600 then spend more on a high res motorised focuser such as the moonlite:
focuser ~$300
hi res stepper motor ~$250
mini hand controller $320
total focuser setup ~$870
http://focuser.com/products.php
SW scope $600 + MPCC $320 + focuser setup ~ total $1790

Anyway mate there are a few more options for about the same price :thumbsup: i must admit i do prefer your vixen idea over the Star 71, yes its an awesome little scope but it will limit the targets a little when you have only one scope - plus your camera lens would give very wide fields of view also.

don't underestimate a really good focuser they make imaging that much easier and they are worth the money - even on a scope half the price of the focuser. :thumbsup:

Rusty

[cometcatcher]

71mm refractor + barlow + deep sky = disaster. You really don't want to image deep sky (especially with a DSLR) at F10. Go the Vixen 8" F4. ;) I believe the Vixen is very solid and doesn't require as frequent collimation as the cheaper versions. Or a Bintel/GSO/Skywatcher F4 or F5 Newt if you want to do it cheaper and have money left over for accessories, as Rusty mentioned.

I'm having a blast with my Bintel 8" F4 for deep sky. My 100mm F9 refractor has been retired to Sun, Moon and planets, where it is more suited.

[mtfreestyler]

I'm pretty sure I'll be going with the Vixen. It just makes more sense really since it has a better FL and Aperture.
It's just that the WO refractor looks so good but if it is not functional then it's a waste of money.

the 1-1.5k was the budget just for the scope so accessories can be budgeted for later.

Is there a good place to buy Vixen's because I have only really found the one on astroshop for $1625 and if I can get it a little cheaper somewhere why not

[cometcatcher]

Get both. You could always use the Star71 as a guidescope for the Vixen. :D

It would be easier to start with the little refractor. It would be a lot more forgiving than the reflector. But I think you would crave better image scale pretty quickly.

[Camelopardalis]

I'm sure the Star71 is a perfectly nice scope and not a waste of money :lol: but it really depends on what you want to image. The short focal length would be good a wide field, very large objects, those that are multiples in a single FOV, and star fields.

At 800mm your usable FOV would be determined by how good your coma corrector is...but at a max of about 2.5 degrees it gives a very different view compared to 6 degrees, and f/4 is nice and fast :D

However, I'm struggling to see what the Vixen offers for the price over the the GSO/SW imaging newts...this is interesting for me as I'm looking for something to give me more focal length than my Zenithstar ;)

[killswitch]

You could get an ED80 + GSO 8" f/4 for the same price as the Vixen. The learning curve will be the same regardless of brand.

ED80 gets my vote. Though I prefer refractors as they are small and light, doesnt need collimation and cools down fairly quickly.

[aarong]

I find this website useful for playing around with FOV's for different scope and camera options: http://www.12dstring.me.uk/fov.htm

Warning: It just makes me want to buy more gear :P

[cometcatcher]

The FOV of the WO71 is about the same as my shorty ED80 with focal reducer (takes the FL down to about 350mm at F4.4). Except for a hand full of objects and the rare large comet, it's too wide. I even crave more FL than what my 8" F4 gives me. Most galaxies are still small.

Anyway Matt wants us to throw him in the deep end. :P Hey Matt, there's still the nice big 10 inch over at the deep end. ;) Can we experiment on you? I'm curious if a keen newbie could take on a 10". How badly could it possibly end? :D

[mtfreestyler]

Ok so I took some advice and went a bit cheaper.

I am now looking at the Skywatcher F4 200mm from Astro Pete's

It is only $750 for the carbon fibre version which is much cheaper than a lot of other sites

I will be getting a coma corrector and a T ring also

I might need a good finder scope for it now so I will have to look for that. Maybe one that is illuminated?

I will get the focuser some time down the track.

Anything else I am missing that I should look into?

[Camelopardalis]

You'll need collimating tools too :)

[mtfreestyler]

I did see a laser collimator so I will try to get one of them too

[rustigsmed]

nice decision Matt :thumbsup: you won't be disappointed.

make sure its a barlowed laser collimator if you are going with a laser.
I always recommend Bob's Knobs, replacement screws for the secondary mirror - worth their weight in gold! (you may have to buy direct).

[mtfreestyler]

Just called Peter at Astro Pete's and he gave me the bad news that the scope is out of stock and the next bunch to come in will be around $1200 and in late March. Since I'm now so keen on getting one now I have a dilemma again.

Are the cheaper metal reflectors worth it or do they cause most people to want to upgrade in a short period of time?

Or should I just go straight for the Vixen and skip all the upgrading from inferior telescopes (Contacted Astroshop about the Vixen and that is a 2-3 week lead time)

[rustigsmed]

Andrews have the SW CF 10" for $1299 that may be of interest to you.

[mtfreestyler]

Hmmmm it does. I only really worry about the quality though.

It will be nice and quick I'm sure

[Camelopardalis]

They're both SW so the quality shouldn't be any different.

The 10" is more of a challenge, and that's what you wanted :P

[mtfreestyler]

Well you're not wrong there. I did ask for it :P

I was thinking the Quattro would be a better build due to its cost compared to the Black Diamond range or does telescopes not really work like that?

[raymo]

I've been using metal Newts for over 50 yrs, and never felt any need to get a CF one. Get the SW metal 200mm f/5 for a lot less money, less coma than the f/4, slightly heavier. Optically similar. Mine does everything I ask of it. The only benefit of CF is lighter weight, and it
holds focus a little better. Focus should be checked from time to time during an imaging run anyway, so you're not gaining much. For me , the only significant benefit would be if your mount is working near it's
payload limit.
raymo

[doppler]

You won't have as much problems with dew with a CF tubed scope compared with the steel tube.

Rick

[raymo]

Forgot that.
raymo

[rustigsmed]

black diamond are Skywatcher's 'premium' versions. quattro refers to their carbon fibre imaging scopes - as in f"4" (quattro) - dont think the metallic versions come in f4.

my understanding is they are the same good quality except for using carbon fibre tubing (and being f4 rather than f5) but happy to stand corrected.

cheers

[mtfreestyler]

Alright. I just bought the SW 8" F5 plus t ring and collimator and hopefully it is here by tomorrow for the weekend

Already looking forward to setting it all up and seeing what I can do

First pic will be of M42 :D

[Camelopardalis]

Nice one Matt :thumbsup: get M42 while you can :D

[mtfreestyler]

You're right Dunk. I just checked Stellarium and looks like I won't have much time to get it this year.

There is always another one to get though

[raymo]

Regarding your question about the relationship between price and quality.
In the case of this particular scope, it is just that CF is a lot dearer than
steel.
raymo

[Camelopardalis]

Still worth a go though if nothing else than practice as it's naked eye/finder scope visible, and would be well suited to your FOV.

It will of course be back later in the year and there are bigger fish to fry as we head into winter :D

[mtfreestyler]

Dunk, as I just got the scope about an hour ago I will definitely be doing it :)

Already planned some time down the Mornington Peninsula to get a little bit darker skies. Will post my results. Also have a lot of youtube videos to go through to figure out pixinsight