AZ-EQ6 or Vixen SXP

[JimsShed]

I really like taking pictures of what I see (or can't see) with my ED80 and EQ5 Pro mount. I'm considering upgrading the mount with the hope I can reliably get 90~120 second exposures without autoguiding.
It's also inevitable that I will buy a bigger scope subject to board of management approval :thumbsup: so hey, gotta go bigger.

I want accurate alignment and tracking in a portable mount. My eyes are on a Vixen SXP with Starbook 10, or a Skywatcher AZ-EQ6.

Has anyone had experience with both mounts, including some astrophotography, who would care to proffer an opinion on which one they would buy or recommend?

Jim

[billdan]

Hi Jim,

I can't comment on The Vixen or AZ-EQ6 mounts as I have never owned them.

If you want 2 mins of unguided exposure then you must have a very accurate Polar Alignment and drift aligning is the best method of achieving this.

Secondly most of the low end mounts use a worm drive and gear which have Periodic Errors ( it comes with the territory). So you will need to initiate PEC training on your mount, should be described in your EQ5 manual. But you will need to buy an illuminated reticule eyepiece for this.

However once you do get serious it won't be long before you end up buying a guide camera and a guidescope or OAG. Then you can take 15 min subs easily.

Regards
Bill

[LewisM]

SXP 100%! It's almost up there with AP mounts in terms of accuracy, tracking and build quality. I cannot speak highly enough of Vixen mounts - I still use a Vixen GPD2 with my Takahashi FSQ. In fact, and SXP is the next mount I will buy... eventually. It is a fair few dollars... but will reward it's owner for MANY years to come.

I have owned Vixen SXD's and SXW's - the SXP's forerunners. Their only downfall is the OLD Vixen Starbook - it is PERFECT for visual, but CAN be problematic for imaging. The SXP's Starbook TEN fixes ALL the old issues.

I have owned also an AZ-EQ6. Whilst versatile (to a point), I was not overly enthused by it. I got far superior "out of the box" tracking with the Vixen GPD2. I also was not particularly thrilled by the quality of manufacture either - left a lot to be desired - soft, easily chipped paint, cheap easily rusting cover screws and other parts that should of/could have been stainless. I ended up spending a fair bit replacing all the el-cheapo screws with stainless versions, as well as washers and other parts. Out of the box, it needs simple work. Tracking was OK, but nothing spectacular. It is certainly a step UP from the HEQ5 and the NEQ6.

[Slawomir]

Hi Jim,

From my experience (I have both HEQ5 and AZ-EQ6) you won't be able to reliably take 90-120s unguided exposures with AZ-EQ6. But you would be able to reliably take longer guided exposures with ED80 on both mounts. AZ-EQ6 is substantially heavier than HEQ5 and feels tougher, however, as Lewis has already mentioned, tracking with AZEQ6 is not overwhelmingly better than that with HEQ5.

Lewis- thank you for sharing your experience with Vixen mounts.

[LewisM]

Slav,

Not saying the GPD2 is perfect, but it does impress still for a 30 something year old design - might be even older! The older GP and GPDX were the standard at one point in time, and still hold their own. Vixen's decision to drop manufacture of the GP series after SO many years I feel was a bad decision. I do know several well respected imagers who use it as their travel mount with up to an FSQ-106 as I do. I wouldn't push it past an FSQ...

The Sphinx range adds more weight capability (and Vixen's quoted weight limit is a PHOTOGRAPHIC limit, not visual - I had this confirmed by a Vixen rep in Japan) and the Starbook is VERY intuitive to use - a stellarium-like system as the hand held controller. The Starbook TEN adds versatility and corrects the motor drive firmware of the old Starbook that frustrated imagers with the OCCASIONAL Dec spike (easily work-aroundable, but Vixen fixed it with the old Starbook's latest 2014 firmware anyway).

I have always wanted an SXP, almost bought one twice. Jut never can let go of the GPD2 still when it performs so flawlessly. My record is 37 minutes unguided for VISUAL - I am sure there would have been enough movement to ruin an imaging sub, but the target stayed on the reticle crosshair for 37 minutes without me touching it, and NOT guided.

[JimsShed]

Thanks Lewis and Slawomir. I'm assuming either are better than my EQ5 (not HEQ5) :)
Lewis, the Vixen, although more expensive, has a lower rated load capacity than the EQ6 (16 vs 20kg). Was that material in your experience?
BTW...just noticed all the Vixen mount prices have been removed from Astroshop's website today! They were there last night. Oh dear...usually means price/availability sadness.

[JimsShed]

Bill, Yes I know I'm pushing back on the inevitable for some occassions, but I'm hoping to get more than the current 30 second shots without dragging out the computer, table, extra wires etc. I find more inner peace out there in the yard if I don't have to click around Windows.

[raymo]

You get what you pay for, generally; the SXP is a lot more expensive
than the Az-EQ6.
Incidentally, the only Vixen product I have owned [about 30 yrs ago ]
was the worst mount I have ever owned. I got my wife to bring me a new
Super Polaris back from the U.K. It had a severe tight spot in R.A. Had to
leave a HUGE amount of backlash to eliminate it, and the clutches would
lock up, so I had to dismantle them to free them off. I imagine things have improved since then.
Your polar alignment must be waaay off if you are limited to around 30secs with your ED 80.
You should get at least 100-120 secs with reasonable P.A.
raymo

[LewisM]

Yes, lower rated, but MUCH higher precision. 16kg is also CONSERVATIVE - it is the IMAGING weight, vs SW's ALL UP weight.

My rig sits at 9kg - FSQ-106, CCD, guidescope, finder, dewstraps, rings. The GPD2, rated to 10kg, handles it impeccibly. The SXP will do even better.

[Peter.M]

Asking Lewis if you want a vixen or a skywatcher mount, is like asking Peter Ward if you should buy a Lamboghini or a Ferrari.

[Slawomir]

LOL


But more seriously, Lewis admits he has used both brands so his bias is most likely grounded in a direct personal experience.

[PlanetMan]

Need to keep in mind there are two versions of the old Vixen Sphinx - The SXW (basic model) and the SXD (deluxe). I had a 2nd hand SXW and there were many good points but also some bad. I took the gamble and invested in a brand new SXD and was blown away at what an improvement - no regrets the SXD is the one to get - NOT the SXW. The after market support from Vixen is also impressive - even though discontinued they continue to provide software upgrades for both models with the latest version a few weeks ago.

[GrampianStars]

My portable Vixen GPDX has PE measured at < 7 arcsec and carries the Orion ED80 refractor
Still a great grab N' go scope package :thumbsup:

[rrussell1962]

Hi Jim, I've owned both, you already know which one I still have! The SXP is relatively portable as well, can be carried easily as one unit including counterweights and tripod. The design places the motors etc below the centre of gravity of the RA axis which reduces the weight needed to balance the OTA. If you want to come over for a good look at the SXP and Starbook Ten just SMS me to set up a time.

If you do order the SXP just be aware that (I believe) it does not come with a dovetail mounting block so you will need to order one of those as well, but check with the vendor first!

[The_bluester]

Regards the AZEQ6.

If you look at one of them, look at the Orion equivalent (Atlas Pro AZEQ-G) Painted black and generally several hundred dollars cheaper. I am very happy with my Orion, though AP is not my thing (So far) I remounted my CPC925 Celestron on it through frustration with the AltAz mount. Not through any issue with the mount itself, just that you can not point it manually without wrecking the electronic alignment.

They are a decent step forward from the EQ6 series IMO. A better design overall with easier to use clutches but the biggest improvement is the altitude jackscrew arrangement. I would regard the EQ6 setup as pretty poor, where the AZEQ6 is simple and easy to use and far more effective.

The AZEQ6 and Orion equivalent with dual encoders allow for releasing the clutches and slewing manually in either AltAz or EQ mode without undoing the alignment, so a vast step forward from the CPC mount for visual use.

[LewisM]

All true, but the SXP is the mount in question is even FURTHER refined than the SXD - the SXP is truly up there as a top notch mount.

The SXP represents THE PINNACLE of the Sphinx lineage. Wonder if there will one day be an SXP2 :P

[LewisM]

True. :)

But after having had a succession of unimpressive Skywatcher mounts, and almost 100% trouble-free and wonderful performance form my Vixen's, I know - through experience - which to recommend. Once bitten, twice shy.

It is like comparing an Orion UK mirror to a GSO mirror - both work, one just is a LOT better.

[Larryp]

What Lewis said! Love my GPD2 with Synscan Go-To. It tracks beautifully and never causes problems.:thumbsup:

[JimsShed]

I must have kicked someone's dog. Rang yesterday for a price on the Vixen and it's now several hundred more than it was advertised for last week! I was on the limit before, but unfortunately this now goes well past my budget, so I'll lay low for a while, or save the $2500 premium and get the AZ-EQ6 GT. I know the Vixen is top shelf having seen Richard's first hand, backed up by the passion of other owners. I think I need to see an AZ-EQ6 in the flesh.

[Slawomir]

That's truly disappointing Jim, I was looking forward to reading your review of Vixen's mount :)

Some are predicting that AUD will slide to 0.67 USD by the end of March 2016, so it might not be the best time (money wise) to invest in new equipment.

[Wavytone]

I had a Vixen SXW about 6 years ago and sold it soon after... I found it too tedious to use, and the software reminded me of a badly designed 1980's video arcade game. Might suit an imager but not a visual observer.

The AZ-EQ6 would be my pick for what it does, but enough issues have been reported that I haven't bought one.

The other aspect has been the really poor weather in Sydney lately combined with a new member of the family means I don't have much time for observing these days.

[rrussell1962]

Hi Jim, I'll give you a call this weekend. If you really think your EQ5 is the culprit for the egg shaped stars then I have an auto guider and guide scope you can try out if you want to see if you can do a better polar alignment and guide it out before you spend big bucks. Or you can borrow my Vixen GPD and/or VC200L, or try out the SXP. Not the Takahashi TSA120 though!

I suspect you are at the point where you need to decide whether you are going to be primarily imaging, or will mainly do visual and dabble in imaging like me. In which case your equipment needs may be very different. I would not claim to be an expert in either, but after 40 years or so at this game I really would suggest that you try to only spend your money once and get it right! After a point you will be on curve of expensive diminishing returns. The other thing I would say is that lots of people get great results from very modest equipment - so don't be too hasty in blaming the equipment. Upgrade when you get to the top of the learning curve with what you have. If not you could end up with a house full of telescopes and mounts - like me!

Cheers

Richard

[GrampianStars]

:lol:
Same here 2 x SCT's , 2 x 80mm refractors, coupla mounts, box of eyepieces, etc ....
:rolleyes:

[LewisM]

SXW is not even in the same leage as the SXD, let alone the SXP. It's like comparing a Skywatcher EQ3 to the SW EQ8.

The SXW just LOOKS similar (seeing it was the first Sphinx, technically the SXP looks like the SXW). In every other respect, there is NO comparison.

The SXD alone was a MAJOR improvement over the SXW, but it too was hampered by the original Starbook. The SXD2 and SXP use the new Starbook TEN, which is not even backwards compatible with the older mounts.

[rrussell1962]

Agreed Lewis, although I will admit that I have never used the older Sphinx mounts. But the SXP is very good indeed. The only 2 minor quibbles I have with it are: 1) Starbook Ten is advertised as having umpteen thousand SAO star numbers built in - it probably does, but there is no way to search by SAO number, only by Bayer designation by constellation, and 2) No automated polar alignment routine, not strictly necessary but useful for getting close to polar alignment as a first cut. The older Skysensor 2000 had both of these and I am a bit mystified as to why Vixen dropped these features.

What I was going to suggest to Jim was that he pop round, he lives just up the road, and borrow the SXP, do his normal polar alignment and a couple of 2 min unguided subs. If there are still star trails and egg shaped stars then the issue is probably his polar alignment as I think the SXP tracks pretty well. If the subs are fine then start to look at the EQ5 more closely.

I don't really do a lot of imaging, so any suggestions from anybody as to whether this is a good approach would be welcome.

[raymo]

Jim, You are in all probability tackling your problem from the wrong end.
Your EQ5 with an ED 80 on it, if polar aligned to within an arc minute or so of the SCP, will allow subs of at least 100-120 secs, and if really accurately aligned, a bit longer than that. Unless your mount has some
unusual mechanical or electrical problem, your alignment must be quite a way off. The fact that you are getting 30 secs suggests that your mount is o.k. Usually, if a mount has a problem, it shows up almost immediately you start tracking. I assume you are pointing the mount at due South, not magnetic.
If your alignment is in fact off, you will have the same problem with a new SXP or Az- EQ6.
If you fix this problem, you can defer buying another mount until you move up to a larger scope.
raymo

[Slawomir]

Hi Jim,

Please correct me if my maths is wrong...

Assuming you are using Sony A6000 with your ED80, that gives less than 1.4 arcseconds per pixel.

Given that your EQ5 mount has a periodic error of 30 arcseconds, which to my knowledge would be awesome for EQ5, that would result is 30/1.4= about 20 pixels, meaning a small star that should normally be represented by one pixel would be stretched over 20 pixels, given perfect polar alignment and an exposure equal to a full worm cycle. Even with shortish 60-second exposures I would dare to say you would be throwing away most of your subs, even with perfect polar alignment. I am afraid it would also be the case with AZ-EQ6; it needs guiding at that resolution, unless you are prepared to accept elongated stars.

Echoing others, the cheapest solution would be to guide with EQ5 :)

[AnakChan]

Sorry, late in the game here. Another happy SXP user here for the past year. I've actually tried to make the most out of it too especially the Starbook Ten.
As I have the Advanced Unit module, it's now my intervalometer for my camera, I also have the video camera feeding into it and it's also a guide computer.

If you're into portability without access to main power, nor want to bother with a laptop/notebook, the Starbook Ten & SXP works great. So it's not just a GOTO computer.

The SXP mount itself is also nice from the perspective it's portable, smooth, & quiet. I am overloading my setup by putting on a 2500mm Mewlon 250CRS on it and for visual it's fine but not good for astrophotography (the only way up for me would be the AXD rather than Paramount, Astro Physics, etc. but that's another topic).

If there's any criticism about the SXP from my side, I wished it could carry more weight. The price jump from the SXP to AXD is massive and Vixen doesn't offer anything in between. My attachment to the Vixen mounts is really more pinned down to the Starbook Ten than the actual mount itself.

I've seen the AZ-EQ6 many times but never really had a chance to have a good play with it. Seemed like a sturdy mount but I kinda feel the likes of SkyWatchers and iOptrons put down rather "ideal scenario" specs.

[JimsShed]

Hi Raymo. Both you and Richard were on the money re the polar alignment. I'd trusted the iPad compass which unbeknown to me was in a true south mode when I assumed it was magnetic mode, then I was deducting the offset from that (give self uppercut). Your prompting and my son's compass got me on track.
Anyways, slewing to targets has now become pretty damn good...who'd a thought :)
I can now get 1min unguided subs about 50% of the time. Other times it's like all the stars are almost touching, double stars. Started dismantling the head tonight. Both worms have backlash play, so obviously a source of movement, but also one of the worm assemblies was way too tight on the end play tension which was pushing the bearing sideways and the shaft would rumble when turned with your fingers. Anyway, still working on the maintenance and hopefully get to have it ready for the weekend.

[raymo]

I'm glad you're well on the way to fixing your problem. If you are getting
60 secs 50% of the time you can probably improve on that. Good scope
balance is important. The double stars suggest a backlash problem. This
can be minimised by balancing the scope a little against the drive, keeping the gear engaged, and lessening the effect of any wind.
raymo

[The_bluester]

That is a feature I was not aware of, could be very handy for quick setup.

[AnakChan]

And 11 days after posting this, I'm upgrading to the AXD tomorrow. Expect an SXP for sale soon :D. Kyoei in Tokyo had awesome 1-set only deal with the AXD and TR-102 tripod that was too good to refuse. However, my current setup isn't ideal (not with a Takahashi μ-250CRS 16.2kg gear on the SXP).

Fingers crossed that the AXD will actually help improve my astrophotography with the μ-250CRS.

[LewisM]

And of course just when I don't have the $$$ to afford the SXP... typical :(

[JimsShed]

After a total strip down, I got the EQ5 Pro back together the other day and got a short test run before the clouds. Motors clearly don't buzz as much anymore. Not a smidgen of backlash when using the hand controller.
Managed to do a set of 6x1min unguided exposures of swan nebula with only 1 sub I would call a dud. Need to do more testing though.
Tried some 2min subs...probably would've processed okay with DSS to adequately mask most of the eggs, but naahh!
If anything this has been a good learning experience. I'll still upgrade the mount at some time, but at least now I'm more savvy.

Also a ZWO camera and guidescope I ordered recently has now arrived, so I can have a dabble with autoguiding.

[AnakChan]

You know the AXD has eaten up my FSQ budget too though right ;-)??

[raymo]

So Jim, you would have probably managed 90 sec subs, a great improvement. If your P.A. is close to spot on, you should get 2 mins
using your 80mm. I sometimes get 2 mins using my 1000mm f/l scope.
raymo

[JimsShed]

Hi Raymo, I thought I'd revisit this old thread to give an update. This mount has totally redeemed itself after the operator did a bit more learning. I can now reliably get 3 min subs (suspect longer but haven't bothered) and have proven this on many nights now. As mentioned in an earlier post, I sorted the PA, but the other week I bought an illuminated reticle to do my alignments, rather than the cross hairs in the finderscope, from thereon it's been happy nights. I've also screwed some permanent mount points made from marine ply, onto my concrete lawn pads. Plus I put alignment marks on the mount itself to visually indicate if my RA or DEC has been bumped out between sessions. My PA is now so close every time I setup the mount, that I usually bypass it altogether and just do a 2 point alignment.