Planetary scope .... cheap and not SCT?

[TareqPhoto]

Hi all,


I would like to know what scope i can buy or get for planets that is not so expensive but it is very good for planets? many recommended me SCT, but the one i only look at in SCT is 14" or larger, very very expensive, not interested in 8" up to 11" SCT because i already have a Mak so i want a big upgrade, and 11" or even 10" SCT aren't that much big upgrade from a Mak, and a Mak is fine but not giving me higher power imaging, so i wanted some thing else, any recommendations?


The only options i saw so far are Dob or Newtonian scopes from 12" up to 16", i was also thinking about 18" and 20" Dobs, but those are really too much anyway, but many recommended me SCT because it is easier and can be used on EQ mount, but i don't have a mount for 14" SCT anyway, so if i will go with new EQ mount it means i can definitely think about Dobs or Newtonian in 12"-16" and they are way much cheaper than larger SCT, but is there another scopes i can look at too cheap and giving large aperture? i will buy Powermate 2x and 5x so i can use those, i have Tele Vue 3x and it is not much good with my Mak, and there is no Powermate of 3x, and i will test 2x later but i want to be open to many scopes options for planets if i have to later.


If you telling me about seeing then i will assure you that seeing here is very good or fine, so i won't have problems with large scopes, so worry only about size of scope and not atmosphere.

[TareqPhoto]

And to add to this topic or thread, many also pointed me to big names such as Damian or Mr. Go as they use C14, i saw even nicer image from Newtonian or Dobsonian so C14 isn't the only best scope in the world, and as i said it is so expensive even the standard one not EdgeHD, many many assumed that i will use a scope for DSO, i have DSO scopes, this will be only for planets, even if i buy C14 i may buy XLT or standard one and it can't be modified for DSO then, so i will keep the scope dedicated for planets.


I asked about RC scopes too, but it was like a bad idea by them.

[glend]

The advantage of SCTs is their compact package long focal length. Even a 8" Edge HD will give you 2000mm of focal length with nothing added. Stick a 2x Barlow on and your at 4000mm, which many consider a good focal length for planets. Planetary imaging can be done without a flat field (assuming your using high frame rate video stacking and your mount can track reasonably well), so a stock 8" SCT can do the job.

Other than SCTs you could consider long focal length achromat refractor. Any f12-f15 refractor with a 2.5x Barlow can get you good views, images, of the planet's with minimal CA. Have a look at the Bresser f13 achromat sold by Teleskop Express in Germany.

https://www.teleskop-express.de/shop/product_info.php/info/p9739_Bresser-Refractor-Messier-AR-102L-1350---Optical-Tube-Assembly.html

[Atmos]

TeleVue Powermate 4x or 5x and the largest goto dob that you can afford.

[TareqPhoto]

I don't want 8" SCT, not even 10" or 11" SCT, simply because i have a 7" Mak which gives 2700mm natively, but it has f15, and still i find it not enough at all, i want a scope that can give me something lime 4000mm-5000mm at f10 or faster, or even f15, but not 2000-3000mm f15, i used Tele Vue 3x with my Mak to give me 8100mm but at f45 and it killed the exposure and also details, i don't have 2x but i will buy Powermate 2x then i will try again, that is why the only SCT i really think about is C14 or 14" SCT even from Meade or larger, and those are too much heavy which needs another mount, and for this reason i can think about heavy dob then which will give me something around 1600mm-2000mm at f4.1/f5, then with Powermate such as 4x or 5x i can be at f18-f25 with FL about 7000-10000mm, so more FL than SCT and also faster.

[TareqPhoto]

I am buying 2x and 5x Powermate soon, that is why i added a dob in my plan over SCT, if i didn't plan to get Powermate then maybe i only think about SCT, but larger SCT such as 12" or 14" or even 16" are too much expensive compared to 12"/14"....20" dobsonians.

[glend]

Your talking about focal lengths so long that Seeing is unlikely to ever allow any sort of detail. Many folks see 4000mm as a good focal length for planetary work. A barlow of 4x or 5x on already long focal length scopes is going to be very difficult to manage in my opinion. But good luck.

[Saturnine]

Hi
If we take a step back for a moment, you want a scope that is great for the planets that will give better views than your Mak, which should give you good views anyway and teamed with an 2X barlow gives 5400mm (F30) focal length, which is more than enough. The seeing wont allow you to use longer focal lengths / magnification very often anyway.
To step up in aperture, resolution / mag. for visual and maybe basic webcam style imaging, the best value to me would be an 12" - 16" GoTo Dobsonian An 12" F5 and an 2.5 Powermate will give 3750mm ( F12.5 ) which I would suggest is an good focal length / ratio to view or image the planets. If you have good seeing quite often than you can be using 400 / 500X magnification, presuming collimation is good. That mag. will show you plenty of detail on Jupiter, Saturn and Mars, dust storms allowing.
The 16" F4.5 Dob gives 1800mm F/L, with 2.5X Powermate - 4500mm,
which is a good combination but the scope is just that bit heavier, bulkier to move around and that aperture needs great seeing most of the time if you want to use higher magnifications.
Suppose it comes back to what your budget is and where the scope will be set up, permanent or mobile.

[TareqPhoto]

Something wrong with your posts here, i am talking about imaging only, for visual i am already fine with my Mak, and i didn't use my 8" f5 Newtonian yet, but i was talking about imaging only, and for imaging it is a different story, many told me visual is something and imaging is something else.


I saw images done with SCT such as 11" or 14" with 2x Barlow, let's say 14" which gives 3910 from Celestron, with 2x this is 7820, say 7000, or say 8000mm, isn't this too much already? but the result is amazing, i also saw images done from Dob or Newtonian of 10" or 12" and 5x, those scopes will through nearly 1200-1500mm, with 5x and you are at 6000-7500mm, and nice crisp results, from where did you get the idea that it is not possible?


If i didn't see the images or i am wrong about what i saw then i won't ask, i will buy Powermate 2x and 5x no matter what, i will test 2x with the Mak to have about 5400mm f30, and that 5x with my Newtonian to through at 5000mm f25, i will compare both and see, you are telling me that 3000mm-4500mm s the most it can be done, maybe you are right, but what i saw by images and description and doing a Math is telling otherwise, and i already said that the seeing here is that good really most of the time, if others did you Barlow and went higher than 4000mm or 5000mm and nice results in fair to good seeing condition, why can't we under same condition then?


A Powermate is also different than a standard Barlow, many said it is a game changer or a magic, i will never know until i use it or test it, i do have 3x Barlow from Tele Vue, but it is too much with my Mak, and it is great doing nice job with my ST80, didn't try it on my Newtonian but i am sure it will do great job with Newtonian too, so a Powermate should do a better job than this Barlow regardless they are from same brand, and again, all my judgement coming from seeing the images, i also got some comments saying that those are very skilled or pro imagers, i don't believe in that if they don't have good gear and good condition and timing, so i won't give up, it is so simple, either larger SCT such as 14" or 16" but too expensive, or Don/Newtonian from 12" up to 16", i will skip 18"-20" ones, there is no such thing as "12" or larger scopes aren't good for planets, you can't do much, but others can and you can't for no reason".

[redbeard]

My advice to you would be to get a ZWO camera for imaging planets, use a 2x powermate and use your existing Mak to start with. The camera and the powermate will work on many telescopes anyway so in my opinion, a good place to start. You should get great results with your current Mak on a good seeing night and Maks are usually pretty sharp too. The other advantage is if you have goto, then the object stays in view easier than manually moving the scope.

Cheers,
Damien.

[TareqPhoto]

This is exactly what i am going to do, i already have ZWO camera for planets so i am done here, i just need to buy a Powermate 2x so i can test it with my Mak, maybe my cheap bad quality 2x and Televue 3x not powermate aren't good enough to resolve resolution, i am not in rush at all about new scopes yet, i just asked so if i plan later i know what to get, and hope this 2x Powermate will put me on the right way for planetary with my Mak and my ZWO camera.


Later in the future after i finish 2x and 5x Powermate i may try and add 2.5x Powermate or my Mak, but i can't be sure if it will help or it will be overkill, first 2x and 5x then when i get another budget then i will add 2.5x and 4x next, but let's just say, if i will use 4x and 5x, what is a good scope to match it then but not SCT?



Cheers,
Tareq

[Atmos]

The biggest Goto Dob that you can afford ;)

[TareqPhoto]

Depends on the manufacturer, the biggest i can is 18", but i saw one Dob of 20" from one manufacturer and the price is almost cheaper than C14, but it doesn't have any GoTo and it is very heavy for any EQ mount even high end which is super astronomy expensive, so logically 14"-16" is more affordable or 18" if it has Goto.

[Zuts]

Maybe I am not understanding but you seem really interested in planets. For planets you don't really need an EQ mount as generally you are using 'Lucky' imaging and can get by with a Dob.

Cheers
Paul

[TareqPhoto]

Yes planets, but others keep bringing EQ mount into the topic because i need to track the planets, so i really don't know who i should believe, those who keep saying that EQ is a must even with a dob, or those who said it can be done with a Dob even without EQ, and i saw images amazing mind blowing from Dob or Newtonian so that i won't think about SCT as it is very expensive compared to Dob/Newtonian, so are you sure that planetary can be done without EQ? i will shoot videos for about 2 minutes or 3 or even 5 minutes long.

Cheers,
Tareq

[Wavytone]

Tareq... "Planetary scope .... cheap and not SCT?"

No such thing.

[TareqPhoto]

You sure? :lol::lol::lol:

[Wavytone]

Your eyes are bigger than your wallet.

[TareqPhoto]

And that is why i asked about a "Cheaper" alternatives :lol::lol::lol::D

[Atmos]

I’ll say again... the largest GOTO!!!! Dob that you can afford. You only need EQ for long exposures but a Goto dob will track the planets accurately enough for the 100+ FPS you’ll be getting.

[TareqPhoto]

Great, i will work hard for that then, hope it can happen sooner than later.

Thanks!

[Zuts]

Hi,

You dont need to shoot for so many minutes. Usually a few thousand frames should suffice. When you stack you throw away around 70% anyway. Planets are so bright that a few thousand good stacked frames is all you need. A zwo asi 290 easily gets 30 fps without dropped frames on a good laptop and thats only a few minutes. If you have usb 3 and restrict to a region of interest, the area around the planet you can easily get over 100 fps. Any field rotation is automatically removed by registax anyway.

So you could take multiple 2 minute videos, process and pick the best.

And No, you dont need an eq mount for planetary imaging.

Cheers
Paul

[TareqPhoto]

Ok, i will practice more with my Mak and hope to buy 2x Powermate to push it more, i feel the native Mak i have isn't much for larger scales, and i keep failing to upscaling or upsampling the smaller ROI, so that i wanted another scope so i don't need to over sample it because i will have large ROI anyway, the only way with my Mak is either trying 2x Powermate if this is good enough even at f30 or find a high quality 1.5x Barlow that can magnify the Mak FL and still not f30 or more.

I did shoot 1 minute and 2 and 3 minutes, and i also think it is enough, but in Facebook there are some members keep trying to tell me i have to shoot minimum 5 minutes or more than 3 minutes even for single video, and they keep showing results with longer videos, and funny they also using something like 10-35% of the frames, and their reasons is that with longer videos and frames over 10k or 20k then it will be easy to pick 10-30% out of it rather than 1-2 minutes videos with maybe maximum 3k-5k, so now i have to make my mind about which side i should follow or who is true?

I like to have higher fps, but this is coming with the cost/price of exposure, if i use lower gain and faster exposure speed then it is very dim or not proper exposed, and then the lower the speed i set the lower fps it will be, in opposite if i keep it high speed then i have to increase the GAIN, and thus definitely increase the noise, and some told me that with stacking so many frames it will kill noise or have enough SNR, but isn't there a limit to what maximum gain i should use anyway?

[Atmos]

It depends on the planet. With Jupiter you don't want each image to be longer than 3 minutes as it will rotate enough to cause issues with registration.

[Zuts]

Who knows what people say on facebook! Just go and shoot with what you have. A ZWO camera and 2 to 3 minute videos barlowed with your mak and good seeing should let you make your own decisions without spending any more money. So my advice is go and use what you have and see how you go :)

Remember equipment is one thing, good seeing is a bonus but good focus, camera settings and collimation is under your control and if you can master these things then you will be better placed to decide what you want next.

Cheers
Paul

[TareqPhoto]

I got nice images anyway with my Mak, but smaller sizes, and that where i feel i want another scope, for that small size anything can be great enough, but when i see images from let's say 11" SCT, 14" Dob, 14" SCT, 16" Dob or SCT, 12" Newtonian then i feel like my Mak is no match to those, i couldn't see good nice images from 7" Mak that can make me feel of this is enough or really amazing, in fact in facebook many told me that my images are the best they can see from 7" Mak, so i already managed to make it working, but it never come close to those of larger scopes, so my only hope is if i can buy 2x Powermate then i can try to magnify it then see if it will be any close to those, i didn't say i had bad images, it is just small, smaller than even some refractors which has less FL, but i just feel my f15 is limited, and my 3x TV is too much for my Mak even under perfect seeing, so it is only getting 1.5x or 2x and try again, or another scope as Dob/Newt with 4x/5x Powermate, you let me know what do you think.

[TareqPhoto]

Here are what i did so far, not great processing yet as i am really new to this, but definitely i now understand about it, i will do better sooner or later, so you can see why i feel i am still disappointed or not satisfied.

https://s26.postimg.cc/6ontza8p5/00_02_38_lapl4_ap3.jpg

https://s26.postimg.cc/avl7wfekp/23_23_15_lapl3_ap6.jpg

https://s26.postimg.cc/skhk20kx5/22_31_41_lapl3_ap16.jpg

https://s26.postimg.cc/vyqjqneex/22_19_43_lapl6_ap15.jpg

https://s26.postimg.cc/sx152lavt/00_26_06_lapl3_ap4.jpg

https://s26.postimg.cc/mmwjpfamx/01_57_40_lapl4_ap7.jpg

https://s26.postimg.cc/kiyvhz7sp/Saturn_27-_March-2018.jpg

[Zuts]

Well, get the 2 by powermate and then see how you go.

Regards scopes, if money was no object I would get a C14 and with lots of practice I would shoot some galaxies; see Paul Haeses images in the photos section, but then I am partial to SCT's. I think Atmos has good advice, more aperture=better resolution so for value for money go a big tracking DOB.

Nice images by the way :)

Cheers
Paul

[TareqPhoto]

And here when i tried to oversampling it in AS!3

https://s26.postimg.cc/gyq8yk15l/23_57_06_lapl4_ap1640.jpg

Or maybe it is not upsacled but it is with 3x TV Barlow, details lost, it was nice seeing condition, i focused till death, and it was impossible to get better, so i felt like the scope isn't good enough to give me larger scales images.

[TareqPhoto]

For galaxies i do have 8" f5 Newtonian, maybe i can buy another one like 10" Newt or maybe RC, i asked in another forum about RC so i want to be sure what they are for, i saw very beautiful images from RC, and there are some affordable RC scopes but i question their quality if cheap, and then which size, 6", 8? 10", most likely 8" and 10" RC are most used, i saw some with good prices, for me anything less than $2000 is good prices or nearly that, but not $5000-8000, that is why i don't look at C14.

By the way, i like the name Paul, i don't know why.

Thank you very much!

Cheers,
Tareq

[TareqPhoto]

Please, don't tell me that seeing condition is POOR, then i will sell my equipment and close my door and just ...... Suicide :lol::lol::lol::D