Going nutty with NINA.

[dikman]

I spent a few hours inside today trying to get the laptop, loaded with NINA, Stellarium, Sharpcap and Synscan, to talk to my new GTi mount.:bashcomp:
I start Synscan, hook up to the mount and can drive it ok. Start NINA, recognises the mount and my Svbony SV305 pro camera but when I finally figured out how to look at an image (terrestrial) through the camera it's extremely grainy. Nothing I could do made it any better. Scope is a Celestron 102 x 600mm frac, basic but good enough to get me started.

After a couple of hours I swapped over to the Canon 1500D and got a nice image, although it was in monochrome and I couldn't get any colour.

This astro stuff is bloody confusing, it's just as well I don't mind a bit of a challenge!:rolleyes:

[AdamJL]

Hi Richard

Sounds like a few things going on.

You connect the SVBony into NINA's Camera tab, correct? When you say grainy, how grainy? NINA can show a stretched image, and you can control the stretching level yourself. Go to Options > Imaging and on the right under Image Options, click Advanced Settings and play around with the settings there. Also check the unlinked stretch
Do the same for your Canon camera (the debayering settings might be more helpful here) to show them as colour.

And just to be sure, you've loaded all the appropriate SVBony drivers as well?
https://www.svbony.com/Support/SoftWare-Driver/

In addition to the ASCOM platform, looks like you'll need both their ASCOM app and possibly the camera drivers as well

[LonelySpoon]

Richard, just to clarify, the NINA mount link is working and moves the mount to targets, etc? That's not the issue?

Nothing beats an astro image to test a camera. I do as you have and look at terrestrial when setting up an astrocam, but they are not what you'd expect.
That's probably why the Canon did better- it's designed for it.

The VBONY is only a small sensor. The pixel size is good, but it isn't intended for wide fields- it is listed as "you can use it for planetary imaging; lunar and solar imaging and some bright deep space objects imaging"

So, not many pixels devoted to each 'thing' in your image, maybe the sources of you graininess. Think of your terrestrial scene as a really bright deep sky nebula...


The features of NINA are many and complex. I'd recommend a lot of time going through the You Tube stuff about it- particularly these sites:
Cuiv, the Lazy Geek
Patriot Astro
Everyday Astro

It's a big job getting NINA going, but well worth it. I'm still getting there.

Neville
Admiral of LSO

[dikman]

Thanks for your thoughts, guys. The fact that I'm getting a recognisable image suggests that everything is working, it's most likely my expectations and lack of experience that are the problem. You've reassured me that I'm on the right track. I've watched many youtube vids about NINA, which is the only reason I managed to reach this point.

The controls all appear to be working ok so far, so at this stage I won't panic! The main thing for now is to become familiar with the software before venturing out into the night (not that I've got any choice, the weather hasn't been cooperating for a long time). Many things these days have a steep learning curve, but this one is near vertical!:lol:

[dikman]

I've been watching more stuff and reckon I might need to get a USB to serial converter so I can try using the RJ45 port on the mount and use eqmod. It apparently gives more options than using the USB to USB cable and the Skywatcher sync?

I'm sure I've got a converter (somewhere) in all my computer/electronic stuff but I'm buggered if I can find it.:shrug:

[AdamJL]

interesting... what does using the RJ45 give you that USB doesn't?

[dikman]

In the vid the chap found that it allows him to swing the scope vertical so when doing flats he can rest the frame on top, he couldn't do this with the Skywatcher app. It got me wondering if controlling it through the serial port would be better? I have no idea myself as I'm at the stage where I don't even know enough to be dangerous yet.:)

Which is why I'm raising points/asking questions that may have the more experienced on here scratching their heads in wonder. If I'm way off course here please let me know.

[AdamJL]

I use a USB cable and can point the scope to zenith easily through NINAs flats wizard. Just click “slew to zenith”

[dikman]

Thank Adam, this is one of the potential problems with watching lots of youtube vids on a subject that I have very little experience with, and why I ask sometimes seemingly inane questions. That is one less thing I need to be concerned about, I'll stick with the USB.:thumbsup:

[LonelySpoon]

The USB is faster, and more reliable, than the serial port. It connects faster as well.

As noted, the option to take flats in NINA will rotate the scope to zenith for you, but presumably just locating an object at zenith and slewing to that would achieve the same end?

Neville
Admiral of LSO

[AdamJL]

Certainly would, but it would take longer. Slewing to zenith is a single press of a button in NINA. Otherwise you have to search for yourself, key in the target, slew, platesolve etc.

[dikman]

It's lucky I haven't got any hair or I'd be pulling it out! It's your fault, Adam, as I thought I'd try the "slew to zenith" thingy. I get an "ASCOM driver error invalid response" message every time I try.:confused2:
I re-installed the ASCOM drivers - twice - and tried re-starting everything but to no avail. The little I've found about this message indicates I should load the latest drivers, which I did. This appears to be the same problem the guy had in the video I watched, so maybe he was right?:shrug:

Anyone got any ideas?

[AdamJL]

Can you connect to the mount succesfully? (a message in the bottom right will come up showing a green tick).
And are you able to use the mount successfully otherwise?

Things to check:
- Your baud rate has been correctly set in your driver (EQMod I'm guessing?) and in Windows itself (you'll need to open the relevant COM port and change it. I can post a picture of mine if you want)
- You're direct connecting to the mount, not the hand controller or anything?
- You've got a good quality USB cable?

[AdamJL]

Here are the pictures anyway..

I have both COM5 and COM9 set to a Baud rate of 115200, which is required with and EQ6-R at least.

And for the GTI (I presume you mean Star Adventurer GTi?)

I found this on CN. I don't remember mucking about too much with EQMod when I had my copy of this mount.

https://www.cloudynights.com/topic/808906-star-adventurer-gti/page-17#entry12178393

[dikman]

Thanks for the suggestions, Adam, I'll have another play later this evening. Everything so far appears to work except for the driver issue. I'm pretty sure all the settings are correct but I'll go through them all again, it has to be something fairly simple.

Do you know anything about Green Swamp Server? I've seen it mentioned before with regard to solving possible compatibility issues.

[AdamJL]

I tried Green Swamp Server a year ago and didn’t think it was ready. It might be in better condition now but I’ve yet to try it (but thanks for the reminder, I might give it a go again)

[dikman]

Ok, more experimenting (at least it's dry inside :lol:). I can locate a target in Stellarium, import it to NINA and slew the mount to it. So that's all working, but I cannot get the "slew to zenith" to work. As far as I can figure it's because it can't see an eqmod driver, but as I understand it I shouldn't need one because I'm not using a serial (RS232) connection?

I feel like I'm going in ever-decreasing circles.:lol:

[AdamJL]

I'm not sure about the Star Adventurer GTi, but for my EQ6-R, NINA indeed sees the driver. And it sounds like yours does too, otherwise how are you slewing to your target? NINA will only send the command to your mount if it first connects to your ASCOM driver, be it EQMod, GSS, or whatever is used for the SA GTi.


Can you post a NINA Log? I am on the NINA discord and can ask for some assistance if you want (or you can join too!)
Logs are found here:
%LOCALAPPDATA%\NINA\Logs\

https://nighttime-imaging.eu/docs/master/site/troubleshooting/general/

In general, if there's an issue with a driver error, it's usually the driver at fault, or some combination of software isn't working right. NINA is just the middleman for various drivers at one level.

[AdamJL]

p.s. if you read the link I sent for the CloudyNights forum post, the person there used the Synscan app and drivers, not EQMod.

[dikman]

Hi Adam, this is the log file from my latest attempt, from what I can glean from it the only thing wrong is the error message/invalid response when trying to slew (slew to zenith attempt).

I just tried Green Swamp Server but nothing I do will connect it to the mount, it doesn't see the serial port, even though all the settings match the mount. I will have to RTFM!

In the meantime my other laptop has been going slow for the last few days and nothing I do makes any difference.:shrug:
Did I mention I hate Windows? What was wrong with DOS anyway?:)

Edit:a bit later and success, of a sort. I was a technician in a previous life so reading the manual was always a last resort but it's amazing what you find out when you actually read the f*&%* manual.:lol: GSS is working, everything talks to everything and slew to zenith works, sort of - it slews to a horizontal position rather than vertical but that just has a to be a setting somewhere. All I have to do is start NINA, select the mount, click connect and bingo!
The cabling is slowly getting out of hand, and I haven't even got a camera connected yet! I've had to use a powered USB hub to get enough connections so I can use a mouse - I HATE using touch pads on laptops!!

[AdamJL]

Hey Richard. I'm glad you've got it sort of working! When you say slews to horizontal, do you mean the RA axis? If so, that's working as expected. The Dec axis should also be pointing straight up so your telescope is at zenith. Is that happening too?

[dikman]

The scope itself swings to point horizontal, I thought pointing to zenith it should point straight up?

[AdamJL]

Yep, but the RA axis is horizontal when that happens.
Dec is vertical. So it sounds like the Dec axis isn't moving, is that right?

[dikman]

Ahh, I see what you mean, yes, it only swings on one axis.

[Wilsil]

Are you using the EQmod?
Also have you connected the miount in NINA?
When you click Slew to Zenith in the flat wizard, is the mount unparked?

[AdamJL]

Just to be sure, you’ve tightened the Dec clutch as well? Neither axis will spin if it’s not locked first. Locking engages the gears

[dikman]

:lol: Yes, clutches are locked, prior to trying to slew to zenith I was driving around a bit.

Yes Wilco, it's unparked (or it wouldn't move at all :)). It's connected via NINA, using the Green Swamp Server driver. I'm not panicking over the zenith thing yet as it's got to be something fairly simple as everything else appears to be working. I'll check the GSS settings again too, there's just so many things to get right in these programmes.

I'm in awe that people can make these complex programmes and then make them freely available! Incredible bit of work.

Edit: a couple of hours later, after fiddling around, it's now working and slewing to zenith. I'm not sure what I did (:rolleyes:) but I suspect it was setting the home position. Between GSS and NINA there's lots to play with. Now to get onto the camera settings.

[LonelySpoon]

Glad you got that sorted, Richard.

Those "everything else works, why don't you?" kind of problems can drive you batty,

My dome would track the scope, stop, then start turning in the opposite direction. Worked fine when manually given numbers.

Turned out I'd put .. instead of . in a decimal.

Really hard to find these things so sometimes "Change Everything!" is the way to go!

Neville
LSO

[dikman]

Thanks mate, it doesn't help that I'm completely new to all this astro stuff. If you stop and think about it, it's pretty amazing just what this software can do. It looks like there is a problem with the Skywatcher driver but it doesn't matter as it's sorted.

I just wish my other laptop issue was as simple, it looks like I'm going to have to re-install W10!:mad2:

[astrobarn]

Hi Richard,
It really doesn't get that much easier so don't be hard on yourself. Every time I got a new piece of equipment or decided to trial a new piece of software I ended up spending most of the night troubleshooting and tinkering. It's part of the hobby and certainly a huge barrier to entry. Good thing you enjoy a challenge :lol:
Dan

[dikman]

Just when I thought I was getting NINA sussed out....... My new 80mm/F7 arrived so figured I'd mess around with it and the camera to get a feel for it during the daytime. The camera is an SVBony S305pro, basically a planetary/guiding thingy with usb3. I could not seem get an image in NINA so switched to Sharpcap and after much faffing around with extender tubes and a diagonal finally got an image. Leaving the scope alone I switched back to NINA and while I finally got an image it was very dark. The only adjustment I had was gain but that did nothing until I reached the point where it was too much.

Sharpcap gives access to all the settings in the camera - gain, saturation, gamma, contrast, white balance etc - but NINA doesn't, so it looks like I'll have to use Sharpcap.
I suppose another option will be to get a guidescope, use the camera as a guider (seems a bit of overkill) and use my Canon.

All this is giving my braincells conniptions!:confused:

[AdamJL]

Saturation, contrast, gamma and WB are not really functions of a RAW image. That's post-processing. Gain is all you need. The rest is editing.
If you're pushing it in Sharpcap, it sounds like your raw image there isn't great either.
Extenders necessitate longer subs, btw.

[oska]

Have you checked your camera & image options?
Options->Equipment->Camera
Options->Imaging->Image Options:
The advanced section lets you tweak the auto stretch

[dikman]

All I'm trying to do at the moment is get a live image so that I can get an idea of what's working. The default image in Sharpcap is fine without needing any tweaking, I only mentioned the availability of the settings to highlight the apparent difference between the two programmes with this camera. The image in NINA is dark, barely discernible.

I've been through every menu/setting I can find in NINA and there's nothing that helps. I started off using the ASCOM drivers but that caused issues, searching the 'net I found that the native SVBony drivers were recommended so that is what I'm using.

More experimenting needed, until I can get a reasonable image in daylight there's no way I'll be wasting time trying to use it at night (mind you, with all the cloud around that's not really an issue :rolleyes:).

[Wilsil]

Just a thought, have you switched on auto stretching in NINA?

[dikman]

Just finished another frustrating couple of hours with this issue. Wilco, I don't recall seeing auto-stretching in any of the menus?

Anyhow, for that to work I need an image and I can't even get that now!:bashcomp:

Started off getting a visual image in the scope, then ran Sharpcap and got the focus right with the camera, the image looked pretty good.
Closed Sharpcap, opened NINA, connected camera and scope and got an image but it was dark and grainy. Fiddling around with the gain settings didn't help. Went through every menu I could find in NINA but there were minimal camera settings available.
This was using the native camera driver so I decided to re-connect the camera using the ASCOM driver. The camera connected but when I went to imaging nothing happened, the stats window showed nothing and I could not initiate an image. Bugger.
Re-connected with the native driver but now had the same issue with the imaging window, no stats and no image!!!
Closed it all down and went back to Sharpcap, no problems the camera was working fine.
Back into NINA, still no image.
Ok, re-install the native driver, makes no difference.
Ok, delete NINA and reinstall it. Nope, still nothing in imaging.:mad2: NINA recognises the camera, connects ok with no error messages - but nothing in imaging.

Got me stuffed.:shrug:

[AdamJL]

John already mentioned it above. Here is what was said:



Attached is what I have for one of my setups.

[Wilsil]

Go back to the start and do it bit by bit.

Camera is connected to NINA: perfect.
Are you in focus?
Are you using a filter?
How long is you exposure?

Did you use the Imaging tab to take an image?
I think that SharpCap start shooting image the moment you select your camera from memory.
NINA you have to tell it to take an image.

[dikman]

And there is the problem, in imaging there was a setting to loop the image but that is no longer there so I can't initiate an image. I'm perplexed why these settings are no longer shown, they used to be there.:shrug:

[Wilsil]

That is a step closer.
It seems that the camera isn't really connected to NINA.
Did you try another usb cable?

[dikman]

I fixed that issue, there's a symbol up in the top right corner that says "imaging" when you move the cursor over it, clicking on that effectively turns the imaging functions on and off!!!! Why on earth would you want something like that?????

We're about to go out so I'll try it again tomorrow.

[AdamJL]

Are you in the imaging panel? You've probably closed the pane where you can initiate an image (or sometimes if you're remoting into a PC, the window resize hides the pane)

[dikman]

Adam, yes, that's exactly what happened (see my previous post), I must have turned it off without knowing it. Why on earth would you want a function like that?:shrug:

[AdamJL]

It's designed to be modular. Some people don't want certain functions and so NINA allows you to remove things you don't want.

I don't use the imaging options in that section of the program btw.

YMMV. It's good you're given the choice.

[dikman]

Ok, looking at it from the perspective of an advanced user then yes, that makes sense. From my perspective (less than advanced ignorance :)) it seemed like a dumb thing to do.

I'm a bit confused, though, if you don't use that section how do you use it for imaging? My brains are starting to hurt again......

[AdamJL]

For a full night's imaging you use the Sequencer (simple or advanced). This is where you build your Lights and Darks etc. Flats should really stick to the Flat Wizard tab.

The "imaging" options in the Imaging tab, is more for quick shots to test things out.

[AdamJL]

By the way, you can restore something in the Imaging tab if you've removed it via two methods.

One is to click the icon relating to that function at the top. For Imaging, it's the icon in the attached that I've highlighted. This will restore the panel.

You can also do a full reset of the UI by going to Options > Imaging > Layout and choosing 'Reset layout'

[dikman]

Thanks Adam, that icon is the one I found by accident.:rolleyes:

As for the sequencer, I have watched a couple of videos on it but forgot all about it, got distracted by the imaging issue. Once I actually start using it all hopefully it will start coming together.

I'm used to steep learning curves but this is something else! When I took up Black Powder shooting there was a lot to learn, but unfortunately there is also an element of "the dark arts" involved as results aren't always predictable - but at least there are no computers involved!!:lol: In this case there will always be a valid reason why something doesn't work, the problem is finding it.

Thanks again mate.

Edit: couple of hours later. I think I've exhausted the possibilties, the only real adjustments to the camera settings are exposure time and gain. It doesn't matter what combination of these settings I try the best I can get is a grainy, dark, slightly blurry image. When I use Sharpcap, however, it shows a very nice image right from the outset, so there's nothing wrong with the camera. The only thing I can think of is there is an incompatibility between NINA and this particular camera model.:shrug:

[LonelySpoon]

I think for the complexity of NINA, being able to:

go to the sky atlas,
pick a target,
set that for the framing assistant,
have that slew and centre with an automatic plate solve and start imaging with just 3 clicks is great.

And if you do take the time to organise the sequencer, all the steps become one, and repeatable.

VERY steep curve though- I've currently stuffed plate solving on one camera, don't know how.

Neville,
LSO

[LonelySpoon]

When you connect the camera, check the drivers you have available. My ATIK camera presents 3 drivers, only one of which works fully.

Also, under Options->Imaging->Image Options is Unlinked Stretch ON?

Neville,
LSO

[dikman]

Neville, there is more than one option available under camera selection but only one works properly, like you said. The native driver is the recommended one (the one that works), the ASCOM driver causes problems, a known issue.
I can't remember the unlinked stretch setting. I found the autostretch option, mentioned by another poster, but that doesn't help.

I tried using the same exposure/gain settings that work in Sharpcap but that didn't work either.

I decided to try using my Canon 1500D, and after much faffing around eventually got an image in the Liveview window, which looked good, and after even more faffing around captured an image - unfortunately the captured image has a pinkish tinge to it, the leaves on the distant tree weren't exactly green!
I guess that ranks as success, of a sort.:lol:

[dikman]

So, I'm sitting here, having a glass of stout, and pondering NINA.
I connected the Canon (and lens) to it today and did more playing with the imaging field. Using the Liveview I could get an image ok - but it was in monochrome. Switching to the capture function, again I could get an image but this time it was monochrome with a magenta tinge to it. I can't find any options that could cause this so I'm a bit perplexed.

For a free programme it has certainly been good value for money with all the time I'm spending on it.:lol:

[LonelySpoon]

If I get a chance I'll try attaching my Canon.

I've never done that, always used dedicated jobs.

I'll do it on my non-astro computer and note the settings if it works.

Neville
LSO

[dikman]

Thanks Neville, I'd appreciate that.

[LonelySpoon]

I spoke too soon, Richard:

NINA can't see my EOS1100D, and Canon is not showing up in the camera choices. Nikon is, and I've never attached a Nikon to this computer. I thought both were supposed to be there all the time.

I downloaded the latest NINA, same result.
Separately, the Canon control software loads and I can control the camera (that's how I use it on the observatory computer). The driver shows in device manager.

As I wasn't wanting to hijack this thread with this as a problem, I will now quietly walk backwards into the darkness...

Sorry about that.

Neville
LSO

[dikman]

Nothing to be sorry about, mate, it's all useful information. Nikon appears to show up by default (it does in mine) but not Canon, which seems strange to me. I don't have any of the Canon software installed as it appears that it causes conflicts, I just connect the camera via usb and W10 recognises it. It sometimes takes a couple of attempts for NINA to see it, though.

My suspicion is that when using the loop option (as opposed to sequencing) the image is only processed in mono as it's not critical, but when sequencing it will be captured in colour. The capture function appears to be in colour but with magenta tinging. It's likely a white balance issue but changing the WB settings on the camera doesn't make any difference. :shrug:

At this point I'm not going to worry about it as once I eventually figure out how to take photos that will show if there is actually a problem. Likewise with the SV305, although why I can't take terrestrial photos with it in NINA is strange.
Thanks again Neville.