Australian Celestron CGE prices are outrageous

[digby dart]

I have been looking at getting a medium sized mount. The Losmandy G11 with Gemini or a Celestron CGE.

For Celestron prices it's hard to beat good ol' Lee. :) On the CGE mount and CGE telescope packages I guess his hands are tied by the distributor.

CGE Computerised German equatorial mount and tripod: $5799.00. In the USA its US$3000 - that's about $4385 Australian including air freight. Australians pay 32% extra.

Still the Losmandy suffers similar inflation.
Losmandy G11 with Gemini GOTO at Bin...: $5,495.00
In the USA its US$3195 - that's again about $4385 Australian including air freight. Australians pay 25% extra.

I can import the Losmandy direct.

The Celestron is difficult to import because of Celestrons' agreement with the Australian Distributor. I believe the distributor is ExtraVision in Queensland which is some how tied to York Optical. So much for the free trade agreement with the USA.

I hate paying a premium for stuff.

[citivolus]

Yes, yes, so do I. I was originally going to go Vixen for my mount and scope, as there is no such agreement in place for them and you can get them for very good pricing. However, I wanted the extra capacity/robustness of the CGE mount, so I ended up going with that. I've never been impressed with the look of the G-11, despite the quality of their product, so I ruled that one out early on. The handbox is so 1985.

There are ways around the Celestron distribution agreement, but bear in mind they will leave you without an Australian warranty, so you'll need to ship it back to the USA if you need warranty work done. Purchasing a used mount is one way, but you will need to find a vendor who (a) has them and (b) will ship. If you do go with used, watch the age of the mount, as I gather that there have been some design modifications in the past few years.

[OneOfOne]

I believe some of the earlier models had some problems with the legs not locking into position. For some research you may want to join:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CGE-TelescopesUNCENSORED/

I found this group after buying mine. The only problem I have found with mine is it is so heavy!

[rumples riot]

One of one, the legs still don't lock properly. With the C14 on and all the imaging gear plus counter weights the legs on my tripod still slip. A real pain I can tell you.

Digby, prices here are over inflated and that is for certain. You might try Matthew Lovell from Telescopes and Astronomy. He can be hard to contact, so keep ringing until you get him, but his prices are always cheaper than everyone else. You might find you will be paying about 700 less if you make the effort and get it through him.

[§AB]

basically the pricing of almost all telescopes/accessories in Australia makes me want to throw up

[Satchmo]

Charming :eyepop:

Please do it in *your own* lap, not someone elses :thumbsup:

[Stephen65]

This is the exact reason I did not buy a Celestron scope when I was looking for a bigger reflector. I hate monopoly pricing and I refuse to be gouged. I should say I don't blame the Celestron retailers, their hands are tied by the prices the distributor sets.

I ended up buying a Tak scope that, at the time, was being sold here for almost exactly the same price as it retailed for in the US.

If you look around you can find equipment that is sold here at a fair price, alternatively, especially for smaller or less fragile items, you can order from overseas.

[Gama]

Why not send an email to head office Celestron and let them know how the pricing is preventing sales.

I remember way way back when SBIG was only thru York Optical.
I emailed my complaints at the pricing, and poor service to SBIG head office in USA. I got an email back from them soon after, and soon after that the distributer was changed. Seems I was not the only one complaining.
I still have that email from SBIG !.
The keyboard is mightier than the sword.

Theo.

[Alchemy]

well go ahead and buy it.:D

[digby dart]

Thanks for the contact "rumples riot". I have spoken with Matt before and he is a very straight down the line type of fellow. I will give him a try again.

"Alchemy" I rather gathered that your witty comment was a ringing endorsement of your G11.

I guess both the CGE and G11 have their pros and cons. I was hoping the price would help me decide. That's when I was taken back by the disparity between the US and OZ pricing.

I may follow "Gamma"'s suggestion and write to both companies. A letter may do very little in the way of influence but it may make me feel better.:)

[Alchemy]

fantastic value, great mount, and........... you know you want one ;)

[Zuts]

I know I want one :)

[Stephen65]

This is probably a good idea and something I have thought of doing before. The cynic in me wondered whether Celestron might deliberate prefer to have Australia as a small volume very high profit per item market, but its just as likely they don't know the effect the pricing is having on sales here.

[g__day]

Whilst the Celestron prices for retailers here has often been commented on, let me state once again a comment on the performance of this mount from the many things I had read about it when I was looking at it. In summary:

1. Its gears aren't quite as good as the Losmandy G11
2. Its design and lines allow alot less cable clutter than the G11 + Gemini
3. It can carry a bit more load than the G11
4. Its performance seems very variable - until you really tune it - more below

Looks great and is newer than the G11, but out of the box the older G11 is still ahead might be the summary. But there is more to it than that. This mount seems to undergo a transformation if and only if you do a Dr Clay style super-charge. By that I mean pointing and tracking improves by 200% - 300% after this service.

So out of the box this potentially better mount is hobbled by limited quality control is my take on what several international reviewers have said. Its a very decent mount, but it can be a whole lot better still - if and only if you can do tweaking that I only wish Celestron did (even if as a cost added extra) before it left their factory floor!

My 2 cents!

[Earl]

This has been a problem with Celestron gear for a long time.

Having worked both for and with a few USA and A based companies over the years, I can tell you there's someone along the food chain making a stack of dough on each unit sold.

I think you'll find Celestron head office is aware of prices here and in Europe.

I'd also put money on that fact that the person in the "International Department" at Celestron who looks after ROW (Rest of World) markets is

a. Very junior
b. Has been fed excuses by their distributors as to why the RRP is so high in their territories around the world and is using these as a rationale to management to explain why sales outside of America is not worth perusing harder.
c. Maybe is so concerned about crumbling North America sales that what's going on here is simply not on their radar.
d. Combination of some or all of the above.

Yes, there are expenses associated with doing business in Oz that don't have the same impact stateside. Retail and distribution margins tend to be higher than in North America. But I fail to see how these markups can be reasonable even taking these into account. Beside, when you have only one distributor and you're selling to enthusiasts, you can pretty well charge what you want.

I remember a few years ago when the first NexStar 11 came out I looked at buying one as an upgrade to my NexStar 5. OptCorp had them at USD$2999. The local RRP was $7999. Even taking into account the exchange rate back then, I could have flown to LA, spend a cuppla days cruising around, purchased the NS11 over the counter, carried it back with me, paid the baggage costs and taxes and still had change left over.

Funnily enough, I didn't end up doing that. I certainly didn’t buy one from York Optical either

(Although now, the current CPC 1100 keeps making goo goo eyes at me...)

The issue of warranty for grey imports is of course always the big bogeyman. Whether you should have to pay an extra 25% just to have a local warranty is a moot point.

Earl

[Kal]

Getting shafted by practices like this (http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2007/11/28/2103509.htm) certainly don't help the situation either.

[Suzy_A]

Not only Celestron.

A while ago I was after some Baader stuff, so I contacted them in Germany and was told to contact Extravison, who were (are?) their distributors in Australia.

The prices they gave me were quite astronomical (sorry) and they were very unhelpful and unfriendly. When I complained to Baader, they were even worse and told me that I was a lying, thieving so and so who was trying to do the poor people at Extravision out of their hard-earned luxury yacht. Well, maybe not in those exact words, but that's what they meant.

In the end I got a friend that was going to Europe to get me the stuff for about half the price of what it was in Australia.

[citivolus]

Keeping to facts only as this is potentially inflamatory and borderline under site policy, Extravision is also the Australian Celestron importer.

[Stephen65]

It's not just astronomy gear either. There's a publisher in Canada of specialist books on aviation history (another interest of mine) from whom I used to order regulary, and directly.

Then they appointed an exclusive Australian distributor and told me I had to buy from them. Not only would that have made each of my orders take much longer (everything I ordered had to be reordered by the Australian distributor because they didnt keep stock on hand) but the Australian prices were more than double what I was paying to order the books internationally.

I protested to the Canadians but were told basically, too bad you must order from the exclusive distributor. So what I did was find a US bookshop that was happy to order and ship the books to me for the same price as I had formerly being paying.

Net result, instead of me buying direct from the publisher and them getting paid retail, now I buy the same books from a US bookshop, pay them retail instead and the publisher gets only wholesale from the bookshop. All because they were greedy.

Books don't need warranty support, so when it comes to complex things like telescopes I can see the sense in having local agents to provide warranty service, but whenever I see an exclusive agent appointed I start to wonder if that's going to result in monopoly profits being extracted from my wallet. The best arrangements seem to be manufacturers like WO who do not appoint sole agants and who still give you the option of ordering directly from the parent if you wish.

[Aidan Mc]

Hi All,

just to clarify a couple of points, unfortunately by the time shipping is paid, plus warehousing and insurance, staff, Australian shop rents and most importantly warranty issues, there is indeed somewhat of a lift on overseas prices. At York Optical we'd love to be able to make all gear cheaper, not just Celestron but to be able to offer the warranty service we must get our supplies through the Australian distributors.

York Optical and Extravision are not related - at least not anymore! York Optical was aquired by Astronomy Online a year ago and we decided to adopt the older of the two business names. The 'old York' was owned by the same folks who own Extravision.

[Suzy_A]

So.. You're saying that a shop in New York or LA or somewhere like that doesn't have any warehousing, insurance, staff, shop rent costs or warranty issues?

That's interesting!

[citivolus]

I personally don't deny that shops anywhere have the above problems, but you are missing the main one conspicuous in its absence: Shops in the USA usually don't have exclusive distributors upstream of them in the supply chain. Manufacturers there value their sales enough to prevent this type of thing from happening.

Shops here are, for the most part, doing their best to give a fair price, but when they can't get good prices, that savings also can't be passed on to the consumer.

Eric

[spearo]

Well for what it's worth...
I have just ordered a G11 through ATS.
I had been drooling over a C14 but because of the price differentials i think that when I upgrade it will be to a Meade 14 inch. I can still buy it from Australia and support local enterprises (which I like to do where I can).
It'll be a touch more expensive than buying straight from the US but a reasonable price increase...unlike the Celestron (which I'd go for due to weight etc but cant justify because of the price differential).
I'll be voting with my feet (or wallet) so to speak.
frank

[Stephen65]

Are you sure? My understanding was that OPT could only sell used or demonstrator Celestron gear.

[Earl]

The issue of having to pay for "Australian" warranty repairs always pops up.

In just about any other business, if a shop incurs a warranty cost, they'd either get the item repaired by the vendor/distributor or charge them for the repair. Maybe even replace it. The distributor should then be able to charge the vendor for warranty cost, get free parts or goods or credit on their account. They'd have something in their distribution agreement to cover this.

These sorts of costs are part of doing business on the part of the manufacturer and they factor these into the cost of their products.

It should cost a shop $0 to fix someone's stuffed telescope under warranty.

If they're not doing this, then they've got rocks in their head. They're carrying an expense that the guy down the road who didn't end up with a dodgy scope won't have.

Imagine walking into a Harvey Norman store and asking the guy why their price in a plasma had just gone up.

"Well mate, we had a guy bring back a dead TV last week and we have to cover the cost of repairing it."

Or

"Our prices are higher because we have to factor in the chance someone will bring back a TV".

Yeah right......

[Zuts]

I asked them six months ago and thats what they told me, so unless things have changed its used or demonstrator only; not sure about open box coz this would still carry a warranty.

Paul

[citivolus]

Regardless of the state of the manufacturer's warranty overseas, you won't have one here. You can bet Extravision keeps track of every serial number they import for warranty reasons.

If you bypass the existing restrictions and import, you will need to be prepared for the possibility of a warranty issue and how you will cover it. That may mean having to track down a replacement circuit board or drive gear, or ship back an OTA with a cracked corrector plate... The numbers will still likely work out in your favour, but you won't be getting any next day equipment exchanges.

[g__day]

Credit card laws give you pretty strong protection for the first 90 - 120 days for goods not fit for sale too! It's called repudiation - which is a powerful form of short term insurance against lemons!

[Peter Ward]

I have it on good authority that at least one Losmandy distributor in Oz, sells the product and does service, EPROM upgrades and warranty repairs locally, often in a 48 hour turn-around...and yes that will cost you about 15% more than a direct import. ...what a ripoff...http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/../vbiis/images/smilies/winking70.gif

Peter

[Nuri]

As g__day says, there has been much discussion on this site about Australian pricing. Regarding the CGE mount, I've already said in this (http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=23045) post:

I recently went to Los Angeles on business and bought a "display model" CGE mount from the Woodland Hills Telescope shop and brought it back with me on the return flight. You are now allowed 64KG of personal luggage to and from the US with Qantas, so there was no shipping fee... Woodland Hills also refunded the US sales tax back to my credit card when I faxed them a document I obtained from LAX airport on the way out.

Now...I could add the price of the US return flight AND accommodation in the US and STILL be under the AU price! As far as support goes, there is plenty of support on the Internet if I have problems...

[Peter Ward]

Nuri!

All I can say is you were lucky. I *work* for Qantas and get a annoyed when people post opinions as fact. Here are the Qantas baggage rules

Travel to/from USA,
US Territories, Tahiti, South America and Canada^
via the Pacific First: 2 pieces
Total dimensions* of each piece must not exceed 158cm (62in)
Business/Economy/Premium Economy: 2 pieces
Total dimensions* of the 2 pieces must not exceed 270cm (106in) with no 1 piece exceeding 158cm (62in)
32kg (70lb) per piece


64Kg???!!! not really. 2 pieces. I know G-11's (and probably GCE's) come in 4 sizable boxes and cube out to 95kg.

The handling agent was obviously in a good mood. And if they lost your boxes I suggest you have a close look at the fine print on the ticket.

BTW what did you tell Australian customs? $49.95 inc steak knives? False declarations have double duty, fines confiscation and if you really piss them off, both.

Peter

[citivolus]

I've had Qantas ticket agents in San Francisco bounce back a bag that was 3kg over the limit, so I know they will do it. Fortunately for me my other bag was 5kg under, so I was able to make it balance out.

I can't remember, but checked baggage is covered for what, about $500 value?

[Nuri]

Peter,

The CGE mount comes in two boxes, each one under 32KG and an 11KG counterweight which I did leave behind just to be on the safe side. It was a business trip for a only a couple of days so I travelled light enough to carry my personals in a small bag in the overhead baggage. So no need to get annoyed! :) Like I said, if you add the plane ticket and accommodation, it's still cheaper to buy from the States.

I'm going back there again next month and I just might buy one of those new shorter FSQ106 OTAs to put on my CGE ;)

[Nuri]

Oh, and as for customs, it was a floor model and I told them as such. I was prepared to pay customs if necessary but they opened up the tripod box and saw that it wasn't brand new and let me through. So no "$49.95 inc steak knives" or intention of a false declaration mate.

[Peter Ward]

Nuri,

I just did a quick check on Zuji to see what I could get a SYD-LAX-SYD flight for. Best I could find was around $3000 via AKL. Qantas was more like $5k

Woodland Hills website shows GCE 's to be $US3000 ea. or roughly $A3500

There is no exemption/refund on CA sales tax.

How Woodland Hills did this for you I do not know. You should have paid an extra $300 or so.

Last time I was in LA a rental car cost me about $A50 a day and accommodation at least $A175 a day. Lets assume you were there 3 days but had the car just one to get out to Woodland Hills. (nice people to deal with BTW).

Customs didn't ask to see any paper work? Amazing. They must hate me 'cause they always want to see mine. Hence again I can only assume you got lucky, have an honest face, but I would suggest most punters could expect to have shelled out another $300 as the general concession is $900 whether the goods are new or not.

Didn't have a suitcase in the hold....yep, don't blame you there! But gee most people have to, and the agent could have slugged another $120 per piece.

Total of the tape? $7795.00 (a bargain!)

Your experience while plausible, I don't think should be used as a guide for less experienced travelers.

Cheers
Peter

[Nuri]

Peter,

I think your example is for someone who has never been on a plane in their life. Who in their right mind would pay $5000 for a return trip to LAX? ...and without a rental car or accommodation! :)

To finally correct a few of your points for the benefit of others:

<Woodland Hills website shows GCE 's to be $US3000>
Not true. The demo stock Celestron CGE mount I'm talking about (http://telescopes.net/doc/1050/item/91524) (which has been there since at least June) currently shows at $2695 but it was even cheaper when I bought it in July.

<Customs didn't ask to see any paper work? Amazing.>
Yes, they did and I showed the invoice to them. I must have an honest face. :)

<There is no exemption/refund on CA sales tax. How Woodland Hills did this for you I do not know. You should have paid an extra $300 or so>
I did everything by the book so no surprises there either: The salesperson at Woodland Hills (I think her name was Farah) asked me to fax her the "Bill of landing" form which I could obtain at LAX. Then at the airport, they said this form was now replaced with the "Shipper's Exportation Declaration" form which I filled out and faxed back to Farah from Sydney. She promptly refunded the sales tax back to my credit card.

<I *work* for Qantas and get a annoyed when people post opinions as fact>
Please don't get annoyed because this is not an opinion, it is fact. I persist in this thread not to try and make you believe me but to merely state a fact for the benefit of others, many of whom are also furious at Australian pricing.

Are you sure you work for Qantas and not a telescope shop in Australia? ;)

Cheers,
Nuri

[Peter Ward]

Nuri,

I don't doubt your experience. Air fares can vary tremendously, depending on how urgently you want to travel www.zjui.com will show SYD-LAX-SYD return fares from $2k to $5k.

We've already covered the checked baggage issue. Two pieces.

You undoubtedly picked up a good deal on the mount, but WH's current new product web price is $US3k

http://telescopes.net/doc/2100/mftr/celestron/cat/7410

Farrah (I know her) at Woodland Hills did a fiddle on the CA tax...technically they need to export the goods, not the purchaser, and good luck to you that it all worked O.K. just as it did on landing in Sydney.

http://www.customs.gov.au/site/page.cfm?u=4352

Customs can waive the GST, but have every right to charge it.

Yes, I do work for QF, some 20 years now in fact and go to LAX or SFO once or twice a month on average. If I had a $ for every time I've seen a case/bag/box tossed/dropped/kicked 2-3 metres on to a loader I'd be a wealthy man. My work suitcase gets repaired on a regular basis!

I also have a small business back in Sydney ;)

Undoubtedly you have had a great win on the mount, but, I'd still recommend to others to be cautious in hoping to emulate your exploits.

Crying foul is indeed sometimes justified, but local business operators have 1/15th of the US market, hence get only small wholesale margins from US suppliers, have to pay shipping, insurance, brokerage, customs fees and charges, GST and security fees and fuel levies.

Anyway hope you enjoy the GCE...it was indeed a good deal

Peter

[rumples riot]

I would not bother explaining Yuri. I bought a solar scope from the US direct. It cost me total $6728 after visa transfer, GST and postage (there is no duty on refractors). A leading retailer here wanted $9100 at the time. A grand profit I can see, but not that amount. They would not get it for $6000, they would get it much lower than that.

If you want to play it safe, by all means go with Australian retailers. If you want to save big money, see what other options are available. Our market may be small, but that is no reason why we should pay for that. More people would buy more if the goods were at more reasonable prices. Simple economics really.

Any Yuri I am with you. I saved, you think you saved. That is all that matters.:-)

[g__day]

Peter,

Do many telescope shop owners value-add by example running imaging courses at a modest cost? Upskilling your audience must help your future sales? For example I'd be loathe to buy any S-BIG before I was convinced I was good enough to get value out of it. See my catch-22?

Equally when I was skilled enough I'd have to work which version best suits my sky targets, my OTAs and my skies within my budget. Again advice hear is valauable and could help future sales. You could role that into a course.

Example I have a C9.25 on a Vixen Atlux on Losmandy Dovetails. I would love to image planetary nebulae - which S-BIG would I be best to start with and why? If I where to buy a second - which should I graduated to next and why? Thirdly if I request train me to use these cameras well - how much time (3-4 nights viewing for several hours) and cost (e.g. $400 for a course) would it involve if you ran it as a class on your set-up equipment rather than mine to eliminate variables?

Thanks,

Matthew

[netwolf]

According to the Law, There should be no customs duty on Telescopes and Telescope mounts. But you do have to pay GST.

Regards
Fahim

[Peter Ward]

Fahim,

Not quite right. But you are correct in there is no duty on Telescopes. Customs however do charge EFT entry, lodgment and security fees on all formal imports, regardless of the type of goods.

Cheers
Peter