Is the Argo Navis really that good?

[ericc]

I hope to god the answer to the question is yes,as I just conversed with Gary via email and have already placed the order for a AN unit.
I was "blown away" as I emailed Gary at 9am this morning(Sunday) and he actually replied--wow!

Im a newbie and have the typical l/p suburban backyard complete with anything in an Easterly direction blocked.
I have not travelled with the scope to better skies yet,but a trip out West is coming up shortly(cant wait).

I am very interested in finding dsos.

I am not into high tech stuff,but I hope this may be a useful tool?

Im having a bit of a hard time finding my way around the sky so I hope the AN will compliment charts/planishere etc and give me more time actually at the eye piece(as with most of us--time is at a premium)?

I based my decision to jump in around some of the comments in the "AN sticky thread"(and also reading bits from Cloudy Nights forum etc)

So--In the real world ----is the Argo Navis that good?

Any thoughts from any Ago Navis users out there would be appreciated!
Cheers-Eric
:thanx:

[[1ponders]]

Hi Eric. I'm assuming you have a Dob? If yes then you have just purchased the next most important piece of dob equipment after eyepieces and charts. :thumbsup:

[mick pinner]

you will not be dissapointed, l have a unit on my G11 and would never consider changing to go-to. A.N is the best you can buy.

[[1ponders]]

Oh and if you have an EQ mount then yes they are great to have and I wouldn't give mine up, but there are other things i'd buy first ;)

(see sig :lol: )

[sheeny]

YES!

(Not much else to say, really!)

Al.

[gbeal]

Yes as well, best item I have purchased, and from a top guy as well. You will not regret it.
Gary

[ericc]

Yes--sorry---its a dob

[Dave47tuc]

The Argo Navis is the best thing you can buy for your scope period, read this thread,
http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=35708

Hope you have many nights with your scope and Argo Navis :thumbsup:

[netwolf]

Yes, best DSC in the world. Mine is on my mates GM-200 in his perm observatory and its very accurate. His C11 at F10 and barlowed was still geting the targets in the FOV and usualy dead centre.

But the best thing about it is not the AN itself. I have said this before and you have already experienced some of it. It is the support that Gary provides for the product and community. Most users will tell you Gary does not seem to sleep, you can send him an email at 1am and get a response in 5mins. Now thats customer service.

So be at ease you just got the best upgrade.

[seanliddelow]

Does the argo navis have a tour button? :help:

[danielsun]

Yes it does and a whole lot more. It is a brilliant device worth every cent and Garys service is NO 1.:thumbsup:

Cheers Daniel.

[norm]

Absolutely YES :thumbsup:

There are some who prefer the traditional method of star charts, planisphere and even tools like Stellarium. There is an admiration for those who know the night sky well and rattle objects off the tip of the tongue. For me, the Argo is an invaluable resource thats made navigating so much easier and quicker.

In no time you will be able to grasp and recognise the vicinity of popular objects in the night sky, what constellation they're in etc.

You will still need to learn some basics of the night sky and some brighter stars to setup the Argo each night (2 star alignment), but that's pretty easy and quickly picked up.

Like many have said before, arguably the best accessory outside the scope itself and a collimation tool for the dob.

You won't be disappointed.

Cheers Norm :)

[wavelandscott]

As others have said, yes, it is that good...top shelf item!

[ericc]

Thanx for all the feedback people--and everythings good--I cant wait!

Cheers-Eric

[Vartigy]

Quick question after I did some light reading on it.
I noticed that it will guide your viewing to particular celestial objects through its motors.
But it can't track??
Is this correct?

[erick]

No motors, Aaron, it just tells you where (and at what) your telescope is pointing based on two encoders, one on Altitude axis and one on Azimuth axis.

In summary, once aligned, you dial in the desired object and the AN will show you, with arrows and a "count-down" number, how you have to move the scope in alt and azi to place the object in your field of view.

Alternatively, point the scope at something and ask the AN to identify what the object is.

[Vartigy]

ahh. Righto.
Thanks for clearing that up Eric.

[Omaroo]

The Argo is a "passive" device. It doesn't "move" anything at all - once an initial alignment procedure is carried out it merely knows (through the encoders Eric mentioned) where your scope is pointed at any one time. If you wish to go to an object that you've searched for and found in the database the Argo will tell you which way to push your scope, and how far, to get to it. Counters will appear in both alt and azimuth planes that will decrement to zero as you approach the target. It's very accurate. This is what you hear referred to as "PUSH TO", as opposed to "GO TO" which is what scopes fitted with slewing-speed motors do. Given that, the Argo wont make your scope track unless it is already fitted with tracking (clock-drive) motors, with which nearly all Dobsonian-mounted scopes are not.

[goober]

Is the Argo really that good? It's probably better.... fantastic piece of kit.

[erick]

"one on Altitude axis and one on Azimuth axis."

I should qualify - for a dobsonian or non-wedge fork mount. AN can go on a GEM, of course.

[iceman]

At the Pony Club on Saturday night, someone was asking about an Argo, and said that someone else told them "they're expensive for what you get" (or words to that effect).

I said, "that person must never have used one".

A brilliant accessory.

[erick]

What you get for your money is observing time. You can spend time star-hopping and locating objects (good experience and I did it for some 18 months - good for building your "character"), or you can move quickly to the desired object and spend your time observing it. In my view, money very well spent, in my observing time-poor life!

[ngcles]

Hi Eric & All,

I don't think I can actually add much to what others have said -- they are simply the best aftermarket DSC in the world -- brilliant piece of kit. Had one now for nearly 7 years. One thing to note -- they can be battery hungry. Unless you use super-premium batteries, you'll get about 15-odd hrs out of a set of 4 AA's.

Instead, power it off a sealed 12V lead-acid re-chargable battery. You'll need the extra lead for that and a battery ($40- odd) of course but in the long run, it'll save you a lot of money in AA batteries.

You've also noticed one other big point in their favour -- sales & service. Gary & Mai are absolutely world-class at customer service and after sales support. Can't speak highly enough of them.

I know you won't be disappointed.


Best,

Les D

[gary]

Firstly thank you to Eric (aka Ericc) for the post and for purchasing an Argo Navis system yesterday.

Thanks also to those who posted their kind words and we thank you for your support
which is greatly appreciated.

To further follow up on Anfo's question. Argo Navis does not directly drive
motors. Instead, it interfaces to a pair of devices known as optical encoders.
As you rotate the scope around one of its axes, the associated encoder emits
electrical pulses which the Argo Navis keeps track of. The encoders now most
commonly employed emit 10,000 pulses for every 360 degrees of revolution.
When Argo Navis is then aligned, typically on a couple of bright stars, it then
"knows" where the scope is pointing with respect the sky. You can then dial up
an object by name and the Argo Navis display will guide you to it. You move the
scope using your own muscles, what John Dobson refers to as 'yoghurt power'.
Thus Argo Navis assists you in finding, identifying and touring 'stuff'.

Having said that, Argo Navis does interface to some third party motor controller
units, the most popular being the ServoCAT and the Sidereal Technology
controllers. This then provides for full slew and track capability. The Argo Navis
performs all the object offset and tracking rate calculations on behalf of the
motor controllers. Both the above cited motor controllers drive servo motors.
Servo motors have considerable advantages over stepper motors in telescope
control applications.

Though Argo Navis is employed on everything from humble binocular mounts,
small refractors and reflectors all the way through to monster scopes in the
48" and even 72" aperture class, the ServoCAT and Sidereal Technology controllers
tend to be optimized for scopes in the 14" to 48"+ aperture class and their price
points tend to reflect this.

Thanks again for everyone's supportive words.

Best Regards

Gary Kopff
Managing Director
Wildcard Innovations Pty. Ltd.
20 Kilmory Place, Mount Kuring-Gai
NSW. 2080. Australia
Phone +61-2-9457-9049
Phone +61-2-9457-9593
sales@wildcard-innovations.com.au
http://www.wildcard-innovations.com.au

[rmcconachy]

I have never personally used the Argo Navis system but Gary must be doing something right because every large (18+") Dob I walked past at the ASV Star-B-Q last Saturday was fitted with one.

[Vartigy]

Awesome Gary :thumbsup:
Thanks for the response.

Definately something I want to think about getting one day.
Shame about the recommended mount size for the servocat system.

Might have to look at remounting the 8"truss onto an EQ if possible.

[erick]

Yikes! :scared:

[ericc]

Looks like Im on a winner people--excellent--thanks to all, for taking the time to reply!
Hey Gary--I can hardly wait!!!!
Cheers-Eric

[Sentinel]

Best single piece of equipment you can buy for a telescope. Everything about an Argo Navis is excellent.

Don't think about getting one...get one.

[Paul Haese]

I had one on my 18" SDM when I owned that. I found it intuitive and very easy to use. It has a multitude of features that make for an interesting experience. I would say it is the best pointing device I have come across.

My only real gripe is that it will not work on my EM400 (as far as I know) Takahashi in its wisdom have made it difficult to hook an Argo into the unit.

Excellent piece of kit. You will not be disappointed.

[Virgs]

Tim has one of these on his 22 inch and combined with his servo cat motors it is simply devine. Not a bad word to be said. The tour function works brilliantly.

[erick]

Someone better say it's too big or it doesn't do this or that! Otherwise it sounds perfect! :P

Maybe the display isn't red enough?

[hotspur]

if your putting it on a dob,its a fantastic piece of equipment.

i put one on a GEM,and personally i would'nt recommend it for that mount.

But its such wellbuilt piece of equipment,i might buy a 12 inch dob some

day,simply to have an excuse to buy this wonderfull piece of kit.

you can't go wrong with this on a dob,and its Australian made too,good

to support local astro gear makers,the chap who runs the factory,is a really top bloke.

Have fun with it.

[ericc]

Just one more dumb question--(If anyone has any thoughts it would be very much appreciated):
I notice that some people with a dob mount the AN hand unit on some kind of a stalk?
Is it an ergonomic/conveniance type thing or am I missing something?
I am mounting it on a new model Bintel 10"dob, and would like to get things right the first time if possible!
Thanks in advance-
Cheers-Eric

[gary]

Hi Eric,

The unit comes with a mounting cradle which enables it to be mounted in a variety
of ways. For example, some Dob users simply screw the cradle to the side of the rocker
using a couple of wood screws. On larger Dobs, some users mount it up near
the eyepiece using screws or Velcro self-adhesive pads. If mounting on the OTA,
one should be mindful of the scopes weights and balances.

GEM and Fork users commonly use a Velcro OneWrap strap and fasten the cradle
to the tripod leg.

Stalks are a popular option for many Dob users. There are some third party
commercial solutions available but for more modest sized Dobs, many users
improvise a stalk from parts they obtain at a local hardware store.

So in the end it is a case of personal choice.

Best Regards

Gary Kopff
Managing Director
Wildcard Innovations Pty. Ltd.
20 Kilmory Place, Mount Kuring-Gai
NSW. 2080. Australia
Phone +61-2-9457-9049
Phone +61-2-9457-9593
sales@wildcard-innovations.com.au
http://www.wildcard-innovations.com.au

[erick]

Eric, here are some ideas:-

http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=43296

Cheers
Eric

[GrahamL]

Great purchase Eric.

on a small dob mounting them on a stalk is a pretty easy option
depending on the height you feel comfortable I found a 32 mm pole to be quite sturdy.

Your alt encoders tangent arm dosn't move so running this encoder
cable down the arm and up a nearby pole makes for a very tidy
installation... no wires dangling in the dark to get snagged on something.

[Starkler]

It's totally useless for playing your mp3's on the observing field and I cant even find where to plug the heaphones in :confused2:

[ericc]

Yep-- I understand now,and many thanks for the tips people!
A visit to the hardware shop is looming.
Thanks everyone
Cheers-Eric

[therockfrog]

I am also going to be getting an Argo unit soon, hopefully for xmas.

I live in a badly light polluted neighborhood and can only see part of the sky, mostly from East to South..pretty sad really.

I think the best software I've ever used for astronomy is planning software. I bought Astroplanner a few months ago and being able to plan exactly what I want to see, and can see, at certain times of the night and then being able to input that plan into the Argo...it really maximizes my time behind my eyepieces.

I'll be using my argo with a Unistar Deluxe alt/az mount and a C9.25 and really can't wait to get it working.

Unfortunately, here in the Pacific NW USA, we rarely have clear skies from Nov - April so having the planning software and the Argo for those occasional nights will be fantastic...can't wait to get the Argo!

[bojan]

I must have my say here.. because you guys are only praising but noone is criticising so there must be some balance established :-)

It is much too expensive for what it does.

For example, Bartel's system (freeware, but mostly DIY) offers the same functionality, + much more (because it is complete GoTO system), and could be used on GEM as well.

But, me being DIY person, and considering my belief that it is not quite appropriate to make money on amateurs who can not do things themselves (with professionals it is different.. ), perhaps I am not qualified to comment...

[ausastronomer]

I couldn't disagree more. It is a quality product in every respect using only the best quality components and comes with after sales service and support second to none. Like most things in life you get what you pay for.

IMO to compare the Argo Navis to a cobbled up back yard DIY job is like comparing a BMW to a LADA. They both get you to the supermarket at the same time. The comparison starts and ends there, as the driving experience does not compare in any way shape or form. Nor does the quality of components, assembly or construction.

Cheers,
John B

PS: I have 3 Argo Navis Units and wouldn't be without them.

[gary]

Hi James,

Thanks for the post and greetings to you there in Seattle.

As you noted, Astroplanner directly supports downloading Argo Navis user catalog
entries which in turn can bring rigor to a night's observing.

Best Regards

Gary Kopff
Managing Director
Wildcard Innovations Pty. Ltd.
20 Kilmory Place, Mount Kuring-Gai
NSW. 2080. Australia
Phone +61-2-9457-9049
Phone +61-2-9457-9593
sales@wildcard-innovations.com.au
http://www.wildcard-innovations.com.au

[GrampianStars]

It's got the :thumbsup:from me
had it a few years now
hooked to a 25 yr old meade sct
works a treat
stops the grey matter rusting with 3 different systems :lol:
i.e.
Argo Navis
SS2000
AutoStar

[bojan]

I agree that you disagree.
But, as I said, I am DIY person and I do not buy my equipment, I build it myself (because I strongly believe this is what amateurism is all about).

And, I only expressed my personal opinion for which I have good reasons (and which I will NOT change regardless someone thinks otherwise).
Now I realise it was a huge mistake placing my comments here..
It was certainly not my intention to start any sort of heated argument of any sort.

[bobson]

I agree with Bojan. Let me explain why. If you look at the price of the handheld computers for telescopes you will find so many devices like the ones from Meade, Skywatcher or any other (around $250 dollar mark) would be half price of ArgoNavis handheld copmuter. At the same time I understand that they are mass produced and probably thats why they are cheaper.

You can nowadays buy brand new laptops for under 500 bucks.

Dont get me wrong, ArgoNavis is a great product, but in my opinion the price for its computer is too high. I would buy one if it wasn't that expensive. Its hard for me to jastify the price for it when I can buy small laptop instead and build EKs box for under 30 bucks and have full srceen and many other options that Argo will not have.

cheers

[bojan]

This is exactly my point as well.

[erick]

Not at all, Boojan. We may well differ in our views, and maybe even in our interpretation of the same facts - such is the character of the intellect and human beings!

I have to admit that I did push for additional comments because nothing is perfect.

The issue of price is a matter of comparison. I never checked against commercial competitors when I obtained mine. And I obtained mine second-hand (sorry Wildcard :P ) so I got a good price. A DIY solution has additional "costs" - the DIYer's time and possible troubleshooting, possible lack of upgrade options etc.

I'm both a purchaser of commercial product and a DIYer (to a certain extent :D). I generally understand the pros and cons of both approaches.

It's always great for a newcomer to learn of all the options and their pros and cons. Passionate folks, for and against something, are useful to hear.

An aside - at a distance, I'm trying to help a couple buy their first scope. Explaining the options, their pros and cons and how to weigh the pros and cons for an individual's preference and circumstances - phew!

[Kevnool]

Well i just looooooove it.

The star wheel hasnt been left out as a usefull tool either as you still gotta find them alignment stars.

Worth every cent.

Cheers Kev.

[JimmyH155]

What do I do?? :shrug:glue two encoders to the laptop, :shrug: mount the laptop on the Dob, hire an electronics technician to solder things on to a pc board, then make a plywood box around the lot?
Don't think it would look too smart - even if I am a DIY expert. Probably take you 40 hours or more. Cost yourself out at $25/hour. Thats $1000 for starters oh and plus the $500 for the laptop. Now which is more expensive?? It would look terrible, and perform worse.
Lucky I decided to buy a properly built one:D:D:D:P

[Domol]

I've never used Argo navis, and don't own a dob, but I've seen a guy find everything he wanted in the sky by using azimuth and altitude scales on his dob and by looking up the Azimuith and altitude corridinates on his laptop! Astronomy can be quite simple. No goto necessary. amazing!

[Starkler]

Before I got my argonavis I used to use an Ek box coupled with a palm pilot running PalmDSC. Thats a basis for comparison, but having to drag a laptop around observing? Yuk! Thats no substitute for the small self contained unit that the argonavis is.

The argo is a small box that the encoders plug into and it wont blind you. Thats it. It's an elegant totally self contained solution. Using ek boxes and laptops etc is an dogs breakfast of inconvenience by comparison.

[bobson]

Lets compare the prices for handhelds:

Meade #497EP Autostar Controller $199.00

Meade LX200 Autostar II Wireless $199.00

Skywatcher around $240 dollar mark

Celestron around $240 dollar mark

ArgoNavis handheld computer: $544 dollars

Now, there are many ways you can use those hand helds. As you know there are many yahoo groups explaining how to connect optical encoders to Meade hand held computer with more options than ArgoNavis.

Again, I have nothing against people buying this product. But be realistic, its way too expensive for what it is. I have nothing against Garry, I heard only good things about this guy. I even sent him email wanting to buy encoders from him.

Maybe if he didnt put prices separately people wouldnt see how much he charges for each and that way I first wouldn't mind buying it as complete unit. But like I said, there is no way you can compare making this small lcd screen, a few buttons unit and charging $544 dollars when you can buy brand new tablet laptop for the same price if not less.

Now, think about it, how complex is one laptop to make and how complex is to make one ArgoNavis. The only excuse is mass production of laptops against Wildcards.

[barx1963]

Meade #497EP Autostar Controller $199.00

Meade LX200 Autostar II Wireless $199.00

Skywatcher around $240 dollar mark

Celestron around $240 dollar mark

ArgoNavis handheld computer: $544 dollars

Bob, theres an easy solution - don't buy one!
From everyone I have heard has one, the Argo is a brilliant bit of kit. and Garry makes them to fit a wide range of scopes. For the average punter, a $200 Meade autostar controller is not going to be any good on my GSO dob, there may be a way I could rig up encoders and so forth, but I have neither skills, inclination or time, and would rather spend my time observing

Bojan, yes an amateur can build their own kit, and my admiration and congratulations go to thoes that can, but the vast majority of amateur astronomers out there have to rely on purchasing most of their kit, thats a fact, and without vendors selling quality gear, we wouldn't have the hobby we have today.

I think we should all applaud Gary for being a great Australian innovator.

[bobson]

Bojan was right when he said it was mistake to post here.

[ericc]

Ok people--heres the Argo Navis I just installed on the dob.Its mounted on an adjustable pole I scavenged(and yep, it does appear to keep the wiring etc nice and tidy and out of the way).

I posted the trunnion for machining to Gary late on Monday,I got all the bits back yesterday--now how good is that--4 days turnaround!

Gary emailed me when he recd my trunnion --and also when the completed AN kit was despatched to me.
I am truely astounded by the level of communication and customer service Wildcard Innovations provide.

Ok-its all together--allignment checks etc asap(going to a bloody xmas party tonight-bugger)!

Cheers Eric:D

[Starkler]

Actually I didnt know. Are these setups suitable for an alt-az dobsonian?

[gary]

Hi Bob,

I thought I better make some corrections here as unfortunately there are
some errors in your post which, in the worse case if left uncorrected, might
lead some enthusiasts down the wrong path and cost them valuable time and money.



With the exception of Argo Navis, none of the cited hand-held devices are for
connection to optical encoders. The generic hand display units like the AutoStar
are designed to interface to a set of additional electronics which is found within
the telescope mounts themselves. This additional electronics include subsystems
such as the motor controllers and power supplies. In other words, without this
additional electronics which is embedded within the mount, the hand controller
on its own is of limited utility. Meade refer to this distribution of the electronics
in their US Patent 6392799, entitled "Fully automated telescope system with
distributed intelligence".

Though some enthusiasts will interface generic hand controllers like the AutoStar
to stepper motor controllers and stepper motors they have salvaged from elsewhere
to provide a GOTO system, the statement that "there are many yahoo groups
explaining how to connect optical encoders to Meade hand held computer"
is incorrect.

So when attempting to compare prices, the hand controllers like the AutoStar
on their own don't represent the whole story. This even becomes more self evident
when one "looks beneath the hood". When you open up and look inside the
generic third party hand controllers, there is usually a minimal amount of electronics
For example, the original AutoStar hand controllers have a low performance 8-bit CPU.
By comparison, the Argo Navis employs a dual CPU architecture including a 32 bit
CPU with full external 32 bit data buses, high speed caches and ultra fast static
RAM. This processing power enables the Argo Navis to perform tasks that the
lower performance units can't do, such as real-time name completion when entering
object names, the ability to sweep the scope across the sky and have Argo Navis
identify the object in real-time and very importantly on many home-built mounts,
provide the ability to analyse and potentially compensate for many of the typical
systematic generic fabrication errors that exist within the mount/OTA that might
affect its pointing performance otherwise.

Units such as the AutoStar assume that, by design, the mount they are interfaced to
is assembled to a sufficient degree of precision such that if any of the three
primary axes are not orthogonal or if here is any eccentricity in the bearings or
if they have any discernible gravitational flexure in components such as the OTA,
that it will not affect the pointing performance to the point that it won't meet its
designed pointing goal.

Unfortunately, with phenomena such as Dec to optical axis non-perpendicularity
on mounts such as generic Chinese GEM's being commonplace, sometimes the
scope fails to meet its pointing goal.

Argo Navis has an in-built feature called the Telescope Pointing Analysis System
(TPAS) which can analyze and potentially compensate for many of the typical
systematic fabrication errors found within mounts/OTAs. None of the generic
hand controllers cited offer anything comparable to TPAS with regards its
power and sophistication and again this is where processing grunt comes
into play. For example, we ran some benchmark analysis of processing
performance and found that a TPAS analysis of a large number of sampled data
points which took Argo Navis 5 seconds to compute would take the type of 8-bit
CPU found in generic hand controllers over a day to compute. However, even then,
the generic hand controllers had insufficient memory address space to do the
task even if one were to attempt to port the code.

The best telescope pointing analysis package on the market is called TPOINT
and was originally developed at the AAT here in Australia for use on the 3.8m
AAO. TPOINT is employed on virtually all of the world's largest and most expensive
telescopes, such as the VLT, to analyze their pointing. When one feeds pointing
data to TPOINT and Argo Navis's TPAS and sets equivalent model terms, the results
are essentially identical, as one assumes they should be. TPOINT is sold
commercially by Software Bisque and retails for US$249. On Argo Navis,
TPAS comes as standard and a few years ago was provided as a free upgrade
to all Argo Navis customers.

TPAS can make all the difference between a telescope meetings its pointing goals
or not and this can be the case not just with home-built mounts but with
commercial mounts as well. For example, there is an interesting case study on
the Wildcard Innovations web site at -
http://www.wildcard-innovations.com.au/group_post_5573/
This TPAS analysis was performed on a Losmandy G-11 GEM. You might need to
run the free Adobe SVG viewer from here to view the graphics -
http://www.adobe.com/svg/viewer/install/main.html

Argo Navis also includes a wealth of features not found in many of the generic
hand controllers.



Though laptops and Argo Navis both employ computing at their core, they
are two different types of products that are designed for different purposes.
For example, most commodity laptops are designed to provide up to about
a couple of hours usage on a large, heavy lithium battery before needing
to be recharged. By comparison, Argo Navis is designed to operate for up to
a couple of nights non-stop, whilst interfaced to a pair of optical encoders,
the whole time running on nothing more than a set of commodity alkaline AA cells.
Whereas Argo Navis is designed so that it can be held and operated with one hand,
perhaps whilst wearing a pair of mittens, a laptop can be an awkward and intimidating
prospect to juggle atop the ladder of an instrument like a 20" Dob. Whereas
Argo Navis is designed to operate in environmental extremes, including being
left outside covered in dew or operating in freezing temperatures or possibly
getting dust blown over it during the day whilst mounted on a telescope,
such conditions would typically bring about malfunctions or early failures
in unprotected laptops. Should one accidentally drop the Argo Navis on the ground and
occasionally people do, chances are you will pick it up, blow off the dust and
keep operating without missing a beat. Laptops rarely survive equivalent drop
tests.

Both commodity laptops/notebooks and Argo Navis employ mass
production manufacturing techniques, but one should keep in mind that the
commodity laptop market is a much, much larger market than the astronomy
market. Worldwide, there might be something like 500,000 astronomy enthusiasts.
By comparison, just in 2009 alone, something like 35 million notebook computers
would have been sold worldwide. These economies of scale then result in the
low price points consumers enjoy for notebooks these days. If the number of
astronomy enthusiasts worldwide numbered the hundreds of millions, then
equivalent economies of scale for mirrors, eyepieces, focusers, CCD cameras,
motor controllers, telescope computers, etc. might also be enjoyed. Unfortunately,
despite the joy of observing, the astronomy market is best described as a niche
market.

However, as stated, Argo Navis employs state-of-art manufacturing facilities
and processes and this enables it to be put into the hands of enthusiasts at
price that, for what it does, provides excellent value for money. Let me
give some specific examples of how manufacturing processes allow this to
happen. Some outside of the global electronics industry might be mistaken
to think that one can simply build some electronics, package it up and start
selling it locally and exporting it. However, there are some tough and very
costly regulatory requirements that one has to meet in various jurisdictions
around the world. For example, the European Union (EU) and Switzerland
currently forbid the import of electronics that contain hazardous materials
such as lead. Chances are that if you have ever hand soldered a kit
together in recent years, the solder you would have used and the components
that you would have used would have both contained lead. If one then
exported such as kit to a destination within the EU, it would be within
breach of EU law and criminal penalties exist. One concern with electronic
devices is that they can radiate electromagnetic energy potentially
causing interference to communications infrastructure such as radio, television,
mobile phones, etc, or possibly induce failures in other electronic devices,
such as aircraft controls, pacemakers, etc. In nearly all jurisdictions throughout the
world there are legal requirements on the levels of radio emissions, the susceptibility
of a device to radio emissions, the amount of interference in can conduct through
its power cable, its susceptibility to electronic discharge, etc. etc. Virtually
all jurisdictions mandate NATA accredited test facilities to have tested the
device for sale and to have issued a certificate that the device is compliant.
Many of these tests are extremely expensive and without employing advanced
design techniques from the start, most electronic devices will fail them and will
thus be illegal to buy, sell, use, import or export.

Argo Navis uses only components that meet or better the regulatory requirements
and for example are free of materials such as lead and other materials on the
EU banned list. Rather than use solders made from an alloy of tin-lead, our advanced
manufacturing process uses solders based on alloys of tin-silver-copper. As part of
this advanced process, our PCBs currently utilize state-of-the art laminates and finishes
of nickel and gold to ensure the highest levels of quality and reliability.

So the good news is that since we have invested considerable expense into
ensuring that Argo Navis is compliant and can be legally sold throughout the world
and because we employ the same mass manufacturing techniques as
commodity consumer electronic devices, it means we can deliver telescope
computers into the hands of enthusiasts who would otherwise not have the
financial resources, investment in equipment and testing and the skills required
to manufacture them on their own.

So hopefully the above helps clarify some technical points. One of the problems
with posts with technical errors regarding telescope pointing is that it often
results in email queries invariably coming to me stating something like
"After reading about it from a guy on the net, I went and purchased a used
AutoStar on Astromart and now want to interface it to a pair of your encoders
on a 12" Dob. What do I need to do?" This then results in my having to
patiently spend considerable time and energy explaining the bad news that
what they are attempting to do is not possible.

Take heart that your recent advice in this post -
http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/showpost.php?p=518804&postcount=82
is a thread we commonly hear and many users of DIY kits initially use them
as an introduction to computerized telescope pointing before upgrading to an
Argo Navis. Hopefully an Argo Navis will feature in your observing accessories
one day. :thumbsup:

Best Regards

Gary Kopff
Wildcard Innovations Pty. Ltd.
20 Kilmory Place, Mount Kuring-Gai
NSW. 2080. Australia

[barx1963]

Well said Gary! Basically what I was trying to say.

[gary]

Hi Eric,

Thanks for the post and great to hear that the system arrived yesterday and that
what's more, you have already installed it! Plus what a fabulous looking stalk!
I love it!

The User Manual in the first 30 pages or so is all you need to get up and going
and covers everything from installing the batteries, to performing the first
time setup, to explaining how to align the unit all the way through to how to
tour galaxies in Fornax. I have also emailed you an alternative procedure
for checking the encoder direction sense signs.

Thanks for your kind comments and though it sounds like your mind will
be elsewhere, try and relax and enjoy that Xmas party tonight. :)
(Maybe you will get back early).

By the way, if you haven't done so already, please also feel free to join the
Argo Navis User's Group hosted on Yahoo -
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/argo_navis_dtc/

We have support available over the holiday period.

Enjoy!

Best Regards

Gary Kopff
Managing Director
Wildcard Innovations Pty. Ltd.
20 Kilmory Place, Mount Kuring-Gai
NSW. 2080. Australia
Phone +61-2-9457-9049
Fax +61-2-9457-9593
sales@wildcard-innovations.com.au
http://www.wildcard-innovations.com.au

[gary]

Though Argo Navis is used by enthusiasts around the world we are proud of the fact
that it is designed and manufactured here in Australia. We are particularly proud of the
fact that it employs fellow Australian workers, many of whom are women.

Yesterday afternoon, whilst at the turn-key state-of-the-art facility that we employ in
the west of Sydney to manufacture Argo Navis, I took the opportunity to snap some
shots which might provide some interested readers with a little bit more insight of
what happens "behind the scenes". :thumbsup:

Best Regards

Gary Kopff
Managing Director
Wildcard Innovations Pty. Ltd.
20 Kilmory Place, Mount Kuring-Gai
NSW. 2080. Australia
Phone +61-2-9457-9049
Fax +61-2-9457-9593
sales@wildcard-innovations.com.au
http://www.wildcard-innovations.com.au

[gmbfilter]

Great pics Gary :thumbsup:
Is this the new "really big" screen model for optically aging astronomers
Could I order a couple..I'll keep the 2 I have thought...would not be without!

[barx1963]

Fantastic pics Gary. Great to see an innovative Aussie company doing things well. I certainly didn't as I am sure other didn't, realise the size or extent of your operation.

[gary]

Hi Geoff,

LOL!

Getting older is not a lot of fun and I can relate to the effects of age on eyesight.
I am sure that, like me, you swear that they must be using smaller and smaller
newsprint than they use to when we were younger. ;)

I guess you will be heading up to the Pony Club tonight? it certainly is nice outside
right now. :thumbsup:

All the best for Christmas and the New Year.

Best Regards

Gary

[gary]

Hi Malcolm,

Thanks for your posts and your supportive comments which are appreciated.

Though we don't own the facility that performs our manufacturing, we employ them
as a contract manufacturer on a 'turn-key' basis. So we are just one of the customers
of this particular plant.

These days, most electronic product companies, including most of the world's
giant electronic companies like Hewlett-Packard, have divested themselves
of most of their own manufacturing capability and instead employ specialist
contract manufacturers.

As you can appreciate from the pictures, there is a very significant investment
in equipment in this facility costing many millions of dollars and this equipment
needs to be periodically serviced and updated over time and its operation and
maintenance requires particularly specialized expertise.

One major advantage of using a turn-key contract manufacturer for a company
such as ours is that we can take advantage of that enormous investment without
having to build and operate the plant. This then gives us access to state-of-the-art
lead-free reflow soldering, automated test in a electrostatic free controlled
environment and the collective experience of the highly skilled technicians
and support staff that work there.

By the way, Geoff mentioned failing eyesight and I have been intrigued by your
avatar which is a good test of vision. It looks like you are standing next to an
American-style back and white police car? Is there any anecdote that
comes with the picture? :)

Best Regards

Gary

[JethroB76]

For some reason, I've always thought that was a pic of him on a visit to Movieworld or similar with one of the american cop cars:lol:

[Visionoz]

I am glad I made the decision to go ArgoNavis rather than Gemini with my G11

Cheers
Bill

[barx1963]

Gary
It is a picture of me standing next to a replica Blues Mobile while on a visit to Universal Studios in LA last year. Back in the day (meaning when I was in my early 20s) my 2 brothers and I shared a small house in Hawthorn (inner Melbourne) and our standard Friday night out was a midnight showing of the Blues Brothers, complete with acting out scenes, dancing singing and general silliness. The 3 of us can still hold conversations lasting several hours consisting of little else but Blues Bros material, much to the consternation of our respective spouses!
The Studios were a lot of fun, although this was a replica they had one of the cars used in the movie on the back lot tour, as well as several other pieces from the film.
The trip was primarily to attend a Swing Dance camp, but we took in a bus tour of the south west and had a lot of fun in LA, which, contrary to my expectations, is a great place. Unfortunately, despite passing close to both Mt Palomar and the Lowell Observatory, didn't manage any astronomy related stuff on the trip:shrug:.

Malcolm

[gary]

"Cars got a lot of pick up" :)

[wavelandscott]

Do these include some of the "technology transfer" regulations...the reason I ask is that this past week I've been working with our US based subsidiaries and checking their "compliance regimes" including export restrictions to some countries (technology transfers and terrorism)...the only reason I ask is that this additional regulation can be surprisingly costly as well.

Alternatively, I won't speak about the need to hold up a global pricing umbrella policy that supports a distribution channel and their margins too.

My point is that I think your gear provides a great "value" for what it delivers...and some nights I think you might sell them too cheaply.

"You want I should get the bugs off your windshield lady?"....

[stephenb]

To bojan and Bob regarding your comments indicating that the AN is not worth the money/too expensive.

It is clearly obvious that ATM'ers can produce similar results from other parts and accessories and produce equal results. And more power to you if you can acheive this. But I believe your comments are relative to your situation only, not mine or anyone elses.

I used to be the same, and would spend many hours tinking in my workshop creating devices for all manner of hobbies which could be commercially available. Bu t these days I am more than happy to purchase a product (like AN) where someone has done all the tinkering for me.

Perhaps your comments should read something like: "It is more economical for me produce my own device than to buy an AN". If you think you can cobble a system together and get it to work, well done! But many amateurs are more than happy to pay for the privelige of a new, tried and tested, out-of-the-box system which has local support if required.

You comments "my belief that it is not quite appropriate to make money on amateurs who can not do things themselves" is kind of strange, given that we all buy commercially produced items at some point in our hobby, whether that be telescopes, mounts, eyepieces etc.

Finally, given those great pictures from Gary of the manufacturing facility, and the years of R & D (and I assume lots of investment $, $1000 for an AN is not really that much to pay for all that hard work.

[bojan]

Stephen,
I am not defending my views here now.. I am replying only because it seems that some of you did not read my comments properly, if at all.

I clearly stated that I was expressing my private opinions (and make no mistake, you are doing exactly the same thing - expressing your private opinion or at least I hope this is the case) of the product (and being a professional electronics engineer for over 35 years of experience in both R&D and manufacturing industry, I KNOW what I am talking about), and I sort of disqualified myself as DIY person in my very first post in this thread (now I feel this was actually too much)
I even admitted that it was a huge mistake to post here.. And clearly it was. However, I am capable of learning ;)..

Looks like people like myself are regarded as rogue or strange on this forum, maybe even as lunatics, who - imagine - do not go along with the rest and do not take advantage of all those fantastic offers on the market? Or are we standing in a way of free advertising?

[barx1963]

If/when I buys an AN, I am reassured by knowing it has great support. Others have verified this that Gary et. al. support their product, and that knowledge is worth $$$ to me as I have no technical knowlege to solve problems. Sure I can put together a DIY using laptop, Bartels box, Autostar controller etc. but it has no support, and I am on my own or relying on Yahoo groups etc to support it.

"Chickenwire....?

[Kevnool]

It still is running as good as the day it was purchased.

I must also admit i dont use the Argo Navis to its full potential but then i purchased it only to navigate easily.

I printed the manual out in full colour and laminated the pages i only use for reference.

[rider]

I miss mine, I had it on a eq5 which I have now sold.

We have HEQ5pro and NEQ6pro goto's now, but the Synta goto controller is pathetic in comparison.
(and since we got the synta's I have learnt to appreciate the way Argo retains alignment if the scope is bumped or if the clutches are off.)

yep, its not cheap, but Argo rocks.

[skies2clear]

Nothing wrong with expressing your opinion and isn't that what we always do afterall? Even if we think not! I understand both opinions here coming from a background where I could engineer something myself, and would have done some years back. These days, for me, life is too busy with other things too, and the family likes to see me occasionally too, surprisingly!!!

So I do understand if you want to build it yourself, as I have done with too numerous items to mention here, over the years.

But these days for me, ARGONAVIS ROCKS! Every good thing everyone else has said about the product, the excellent support, etc, etc, etc, is true. So good I have 2 of them in fact. The AN is so convenient, and for me, easy setup is important so as not to put me off wanting to go outside for a look when I'm feeling a bit tired after a hard day....know what I mean?

This post has been excellent, just like the product in question and the people supporting it, and it's been great to get some further insight into the operations of Wildcard Innovations.

There is only one thing AN still needs, and that is a "sleep" button, so that Gary can get some peace and shut-eye from all of us diehards,

Clear skies to all,
Nick

[ericc]

Ok people--the update on my new Argo Navis-(a big thankyou for all the help to get me going Gary--newbies must be a right royal pain).
Had a quick session with the new toy tonight,trying to dodge the cloud cover.
Did all the final checks etc--fired it up--quick 2 star align---did a planet search--and first attempt BINGO---Jupiter smack bang in the middle of the fov!
Searched quickly for other objects, and got the same result--what an exellent machine--!
Im one very happy camper!
Thanks to all ,for your feedback and comments.
Cheers-Eric

[gary]

Hi Eric,

That's what we like to hear!

You were lucky to dodge those clouds that came rolling through earlier!

All the best for Christmas and the New Year!

Best Regards

Gary

[richardda1st]

I have been helped by both bojan and gary (and others) in setting up my DIY alt/azimuth for my 10" LB. working well now thanks.:):D

In this situation there is no right or wrong, only opinions. :shrug: as some others have said.

My view is that the Argo Navis sounds like a quality item with many happy owners, but I wouldn't spend that sort of money on an accessory that costs as much as my telescope. My aim would be to put the money towards buying the best telescope I could afford, than the best accessories that I can afford can be added as need be.
It's like fitting heated leather seats with multiple motorized adjustments to the previously mention Lada in my opinion.:shrug:

Although if I was to find an Argo Navis under the Xmas tree:eyepop::eyepop:::thumbsup: