Orion Optics AG12 astrograph - First Light! - new Starfire comparison

[strongmanmike]

I have posted a brief report in the equipment section so I will just post the images here :)

First light with the new 12" F3.8 Orion Optics UK Astrograph went quite well, collimation is a key factor and I have it pretty close but I think I can still improve it a little..?

All short test exposures as the night was all about making sure that everything worked and familiarising myself with the new platform :)

Crap light pollution, less than cooperative seeing and a 3/4 moon :lol: :rolleyes:

NGC 6334 Cats Paw (http://www.pbase.com/strongmanmike2002/image/134137974/original)

Centaurus A (http://www.pbase.com/strongmanmike2002/image/134138801/original)

Omega Centauri (http://www.pbase.com/strongmanmike2002/image/134139763/original) in a 2.6deg diagonal field :D (seeing was soft :sadeyes:)

To see the power of this platform, compare the 10 X 2min Ha Cats Paw image above taken with the AG12 to a 9 X 10min version taken with the standard candle best in the business 6" Starfire:

AG12 v Starfire Comparison (http://www.pbase.com/strongmanmike2002/image/134190322/original)

[Bassnut]

FINALLY. Sharp as, great detail and colour, guiding good, slight elongation bottom left and right bottom, no biggy, camera square on?. Odd fringing on bright stars (Cats paw only)?.

All in all great start Mike, looks very promising.

[strongmanmike]

I know how hard it must be for you to say even semi nice things about a 2.6deg diagonal field of view (@1.6"/pix)...so thanks mate :thumbsup:

As you have noted the star images in the corners could be a little better and it varies a little between images (some flex?). I agree some image plain un-squareness is happening there but after the ASA disaster I positively love these stars :lol:...hopefully I will be able to tweek the collimation a tad more but accurately collimating a fast corrected Newt 100% is like balancing two ball bearings on top of each other :scared:..at this stage I am very happy with the look of the frames :prey:

The circles around the bright stars in the Cats Paw Ha shot seem to be hallmarks of this design of fast corrected Newt :shrug: a function of the corrector - filter - CCD window etc as per I've seen in other ASA et al OTA's...just one of those things :question:

Mike

[Bassnut]

look, Im nitpicking, dont get all precious on me Mike ;-). its all good. Expecting great things based on these teaser images.

[RobF]

Looking very very nice if those are your first light "quickies" Mike! We're all keen to see where you take us when you get this beast up to warp speed. I can handle the odd circle around a bright star if the images are all as crisp as this. Given moon, poor seeing, etc you HAVE to be happy with those!?

[John Hothersall]

Those look very good for quickie tests and the colour in the LRGB is rich. AG12 collects gallons of light butI know collimation is key with those big sensors. Will have to take a look at your review.

John.

[richardo]

Wooooooowww, mmmmm love the spikes Mike:D
This is pure testimony to what very well crafted fast optics in a reflector package can do... also the speed and quality in which detail can be obtained.
For first light bra, your away and really rockin'.

Super tight stars and focus. I wouldn't be too worried about the very slight elongation I can only see in the corners to the Cats paw... a huge chip which will show everything.

Mate, the image of the cats Paw for only 20min, wow.... who needs to do heaps of hours... not when things come in this good.
Love your Omega.... perfect!! Not a sign of elongation, had this spot on:thumbsup: Same with your Cent A, spot on:thumbsup:

I feel really happy for you Mike.... this is going to be a great ride for you and all of us looking on.

Great stuff and am staying quietly tuned for your next installments;)

Go forth and image muchly... :lol:

All the best,
Rich

[Peter Ward]

Very promising.

Almost certainly some flexure there ( trivial ) which I would sweat as I'm beginning to think this is very difficult to tame in any scope using a 16803 sensor....

Looks to be a top-shelf instrument. :thumbsup:

[CoolhandJo]

The Omega is outstanding. Endless possibilities now :)

[telecasterguru]

Mike,

Great first up images. I love the colour in Cent A.

Gotta love the fast wide field.

Frank

[atalas]

Congrats on the new scope Big Mike!!! details in the first light shots are great...looking forward to some splendid work in the near future...hurry up!

ps...loose the spiky artifacts ! lol

[strongmanmike]

Not precious just clear about where you stand on the field size issue :thumbsup:

Yeh teasers is a good description. Good seeing, a dark sky and a few hours of exposure should be nock ya sox off stuff by the looks of things? :)




You bet Rob, as many know I had been praying and hoping and saying Hail Mary's and Our Fathers and my prayers were answered - how fitting for Easter :lol:



Cheers John

You bet, Collimation is an issue for sure especially with such a large sensor, the collimation quality you see in these samples was provide by the Catseye Tools alone, on-camera tweeking would probably improve things a little but when I saw how close I was I didn't want to lose it.... perhaps I will always see some slight variations in the outer stars but if it stays as little as is visible in these test shots... I can live with it :thumbsup:



Ah my fellow fast Newt bretheren :thumbsup:

So far it appears to be the Holy Grail :prey:, as I said to John above, the level of star uniformity is certainly not absolutely perfect but man, I couldn't have hoped for a better first light considering, besides the sensor is so massive and the camera plus CFW so heavy, the design of this thing has held up reasonably well I think?

I will do anther test session at Mums and then hopefully get back out to darker skies and hammer the heavens :thumbsup:

Cheers Mike



Thanks Dr Paulie...just to think of a cool first light at a dark site....:question:



Cheers Frank

You meant Omega Cen I assume ;)

Yeh the colour seamed easy to extract too :shrug:

1.85 X 1.85deg is a pretty massive field, Centaurus A (in this short light polluted exposure) looks like a football sailing across a football ground :lol:



Cheers big Louie (I call you that becasue Arnold Swarzenegger said it too Lou Ferrigno in Pumping Iron :P)

Ok, ok I'm onto it already!!!

Re the spikes they look good on mediam and dimmer stars, we will see what they lookm like on bright stars :thumbsup:

Mike

[multiweb]

Those shots look really good Mike. You must be relieved :) Top scope. :thumbsup:

[strongmanmike]

releived???? RELIEVED???? Man I feel like Lazzarus with a tripple bypass :lol:...err that was John Howard :question: :scared:

Mike

[desler]

Exciting time ahead Mike!


Glad it all seems to be coming together for you! Can't wait to see what you produce in better conditions. Have fun!


Darren

[atalas]

Quote:

Cheers big Louie (I call you that becasue Arnold Swarzenegger said it too Lou Ferrigno in Pumping Iron )

Ok, ok I'm onto it already!!!

Re the spikes they look good on mediam and dimmer stars, we will see what they lookm like on bright stars

Mike

lol...hey,wasn't that a great video....remember when Arni was having dinner with Lou and his dad? he was doing his best to psyche Lou out...those dudes were so young then! hehe

I call you big Mike cause your BIG ! :P

[strongmanmike]

Cheers Peter

I think you are right regarding the flexure and 16803, it is a fair bit bigger than the 11002 chip and while the residual off star shapes do niggle me, so far they are a far cry from what I was prepared for :eyepop:so all's good :thumbsup:...remember what we would accept back in the eighties, these shots would have been completely undreamed of :)

Mike

[marc4darkskies]

Congrats mate!! Glad it's working out for you! Those images look very promising indeed! I see what you mean at the corners ... looks a bit like curvature(?) More tinkering needed but I'll bet you're breathing a sigh of relief!

Cheers, Marcus

[batema]

Hi MIke,

I have watched your posts with great interest after seeing these scopes a some time ago. I think the images look excellent but was wondering how you managed to bring out the vibrant blue colours in Omega Cent. I (am still learning) select the bluish stars and then boost their coulour. Did you do anything to boost there colours or did the colours come in that way. eXCITING TIMES AHEAD.

Mark

[strongmanmike]

Breathing easy??? Man, when I did the first reduction in Astroart for the Cats Paw shot I litterally ran around the house saying "it works, it works it works" it made the family laugh and the excitment was making me feel sick! :P, in this shot the stars were almost perfect across 100% of the frame - likely a function of mirror shift and flexure adding up positively.

Getting perfect stars across 100% of the field is certainly going to be a challenge with this scope design coupled to a massive chip and as Peter suggests, like other high end scopes (even Peter and Greg have had issues in thsi department) I'm not sure it will even be possible across the whole sky? I will tweek again but I have to say so far the levels of residule star image issues shouldn't proclude some speccy shots in the near future :thumbsup:

Mike

[strongmanmike]

HI Mark

Well honestly and maybe it's my imagination :screwy: but the star colours did seem easier to reveal :shrug:...maybe it's a reflector issue? The focus certainly didn't vary between filters so maybe that helped too?

Otherwise it is just a matter of sellecting the stars using Noel Carbones (sp?) action set in PS and uping saturation and tweeking the colour balance, not hard if your stars aren't over saturated :shrug:

Mike

[TrevorW]

I'd be happy with that

crisp detail across the FOV

now comes the fine tuning and more award winning photo's

[Craig_L]

Wow. That's a great comparison.

Still see those little halos/reflections on the brighter stars with the 6" Starfire though not as pronounced, so maybe they're caused by the Ha filter. Doesn't seem present in the other images at all.

Great images.

[DavidU]

Congrats Mike, I'm very happy for you and I look forward to some sensational images.
Interesting to see what depth a mere 20 min of exposure does !

[alexch]

Looks like a winner, Mike!

The mirrors must be first-class - great sharp field all the way. Who needs mosaics if you get 2.6-degree field with 12" of aperture!

Can't wait to see the real images from darker skies.

Cheers,
Alex

[John Hothersall]

Thats a great comparison showing results from the 2 scopes, reflections around stars are from Astronomik filters which seem to give this with mirrored scopes as I got them with my reflector so moved to Astrodon filters so its not the wynne corrector lens group OO make causing this.

Once properly collimated stars will be better resolved, you may need software to collimate and will have to do it examining stars in the corners, took P Shah a couple of night to do his - this unfortunately is the downside of having a fast mirrored scope with very wide field CCD.

I am really pleased you got the quality you wanted and can only imagine a full image effort from a dark site - bet you've got lots of targets lined up over the Winter.

John.

[allan gould]

Great set of comparison shots Mike. That Starfire is crap - send it to me and I'll refigure the glass.
Just so pleased your new scope meets yout expectations.
Allan

[avandonk]

Looks very good to me Mike. I upsized your images and made an animated gif. It had to be this big to have any hope of seeing a difference.

Here 9MB

http://d1355990.i49.quadrahosting.com.au/2011_03/mikenew.gif

Click on the image to see at full resolution where you click.


Any fast reflector that is almost as good as a Starfire in resolution is astounding. Especially considering first light and no final tweaks to collimation etc. that comes with long experience is amazing.

I feel very relieved for your gamble turning into a win.

You are also welcome to link to the GIF image Mike if it suits you.

Bert

[SkyViking]

Those test images are indeed impressive. Congratulations with your new toy Mike! Based on the Cat's Paw image I must say the light gathering power looks massive. Have you thought of a name yet for your new scope? :)

I have just finished building my new OTA (thread now posted in the ATM section) and was especially curious to see how your diffraction spikes turned out. They look great in your images, and as I anticipated they are quite short but also thick, which is due to the thick spider vanes of the AG12. I have also noticed a similar but fainter halo effect around bright stars in the test images from my own new OTA and am not sure what is causing them. As John says it may be the filters in your case, but I didn't use filters so I suppose it can be caused by any number of things depending on the actual scope being used. Either way it only adds to the fun of learning all the ins and outs of a new piece of equipment :)

I'm very happy for you and definitely looking forward to seeing the first deep field taken on a moonless night with your new scope! :D

[suma126]

omega looks awesome well done. happy Easter

[strongmanmike]

Hey thanks so much everyone, I have read all your replies and I appreciate the well wishes, most of you knew of my severe trepidation leading up to this venture so the positive results so far have lowered my anxiety levels considerably :thumbsup:

Craig: The off axis halos are simply a function of the outer field correction provided by the 3" Wynn corrector field flattener.

Alex: Yes I believe the optics are fine examples and I agree a 2.6deg diagonal is pretty big huh? :D

John: I am with you on the need for a final tweek but I am not sure how to go about it exactly..? :question: I am thinking CCD inspector may be required unless somone has a good method for tweeking fast Newtonian image quality on-camera...? Not sure it is the Astronomik filters par se, I ahve the latest low reflection versions the halos are mostly present in the Halpha shots and I am sure it is simply a function of the corrector and CCD window...but if I ever get the opportunity to use some Astrodons (not likely :rolleyes:) meeer..who knows..? :thumbsup:

Allan: No you can't have the Starfire, it is now used as a spotting scope so I can see a few km's out across Newcastle from our loungeroom :P

Bert: Thanks for that Giff, it is very revealing. One thing though did you coregister the Starfire image to the AG12 image or visa versa? ie which one was altered and distorted to match the other? The Starfire is simply unmatched in the 1200mm FL class of scope, as far as resolution goes, so I look forward to tweeking the AG12 collimation and getting it under some better seeing :thumbsup:

Rolf: yes I think the filter halos are indeed a function of the corrector, Wynne correctors can do this I believe..? It seems only really noticable with the Ha filter.?..and I am not in a position to change filter brands anyway so I have to live with it :) Name..? yes she is an astrograph so (courtesy of my wife's suggestion) her name is "Agi" :)

Again thanks everyone for your replies :thumbsup:

Mike

[avandonk]

I used the Starfire image as the reference in Registar Mike.
The orientation of the two gifs are obvious.

I also made a hdr using the Starfire image to be one stop less than the new scope without any adjustment of your original images.

HDR here 6MB
http://d1355990.i49.quadrahosting.com.au/2011_03/mikehdr.jpg

Animated GIF 16MB here.

http://d1355990.i49.quadrahosting.com.au/2011_03/mikenewHDR.gif

It is not ideal but the very dim tight stars from the Starfire come up a treat so does the dim HA from the new scope.

Bert

[marki]

As I said before it looks very promising, now how about a nice 10 panel by 10 panel mosiac just to give yourself a little challenge :P:D.

Mark

[strongmanmike]

So the AG12 image was distorted to match the Starfire shot then?

Although I am sure I will do better with the AG12 in time, the Starfire is a bleedin masterpeice huh?

Interesting comparisons.

I have to say though, the HDR combo does look a bit yukky :question:

Thanks mate

Mike

[strongmanmike]

Well...I think I have done the AG12 a bit of a disservice :doh:...because the AG12 Cats Paw shot was such a short set of exposures I used noise reduction on it and I have now discovered that this actually blured the stars and lost some of the faint ones :eyepop:...I just looked at a less processed version from earlier in the processing routine and doh! Pays to be more careful :help:.

So hold that thought, I'm going out now but I will post a better resolution comparison when I ge home.

Mike

[h0ughy]

nice results Mike

[Stevec35]

Looks very promising Mike. I think whatever problems you have left are minor.

Cheers

Steve

[Paul Haese]

Looks good Mike. Stars in all the corners are slightly elongated with the bottom left and right being more noticable overall. No doubt just some spacing issues, I am sure you will take care of that.

[strongmanmike]

As stated in an earlier post, my original processing on the very brief AG12 first light Cats Paw image to remove the noise, also blured the stars and wiped out many of the fainter ones - I was rushing with excitment :P.

This time I have compared raw combines with only DDP filter applied in similar strengths to each image, no noise reduction or extra sharpening.

Now in these two 100% crops we can compare the resolution acheived by taking 9 X 10min with a Astrophysics 6" Starfire APO against 10 X 2min taken with the Orion Optics AG12. Both images were taken through the same 11.8nm Astronomik Halpha filter.

While the AG12 image was snapped under a 3/4 moon (about 30deg away in the sky!) and in severe light pollution, there was no moon or light pollution for the Starfire image so with a 12nm Ha filter in use the signal to noise comparison really isn't fair.

The resolution however is essentially the same with only a lack of exposure and the seeing really being the determining factors - seeing was better on the night using the Starfire.

After this simple test exposure I would have to say that for a fast corrected Newtonian astrograph with a wopping 2.6deg diagonal FOV to have resolution this closely comparable to a World leading APO refractor is really quite remarkable!

Here is the comparison:

http://www.pbase.com/strongmanmike2002/image/134190322/original (http://www.pbase.com/strongmanmike2002/image/134190322/original)

Mike

[Tandum]

Struth, 2 min subs compared to 10. Looks like a keeper to me Mike.

[avandonk]

Here you go Mike an animated GIF 10MB

http://d1355990.i49.quadrahosting.com.au/2011_03/mikefinal.gif


This is an unfair test to the AG12, but the new AG12 can only get better with no Moon and better seeing.

Bert

[strongmanmike]

On ya Bert, thanks for that :thumbsup: :lol:...I knew you would ;)

The comparison is a bit better than the last one huh?...note to self - watch your noise reduction! :doh:

How do you do these giff animations by the way?

Mike

[avandonk]

To make these GIF animations I use Registar to excise exactly the same image size and content from each image..

For the last animated gif I cropped the Starfire image and AG12 image from your pair.

I then used the starfire image as reference to register the AG12 image. The trick is then to combine average the intersection of these two images. I then slightly crop this combination.

Using this cropped combination as the reference I then run Registar again.
This time I intersection combine the reference image with a weight of 0.0001 (click on combine and right click on reference image to insert value of 0.0001) to the wanted image weight of 1.0 or default.

Repeat for all images. You now have perfectly aligned images with exactly the same size dimensions in pixels.

Convert to gifs with PS.

I use a program called UnFREEz from here to make the animation

http://www.whitsoftdev.com/unfreez/

Just highlight the gifs for the animation and drag to the UnFREEz window and make sure you put the cursor on frame1.

You can then insert the delay between frames.


Hope this is clear if not feel free to ask any questions.


Bert

[Satchmo]

Hi Michael

A 12" telescope has an angular resolution twice that of a 6" telescope. Takahashi scopes run by the same laws of physics as any other :) Assuming good optics ,the similarity in resolving power in the comparison shot taken with twice the aperture at similar FL, must come down to the level of pixel under -sampling of the airy pattern and /or inclement seeing conditions. An unobstructed refracter will have less light in the outer rings than an obstructed scope , but you would need a greater level of pixel over- sampling of the airy pattern to pick the difference. Still its remarkable to get so much quality data in 20 minutes compared to 90 minutes.

Is your 'scopes native focal ratio F3.8 or F4 ?

[strongmanmike]

Yeh, probably all makes sense Mark (it's an Astrophysics APO by the way, not Takahashi). The untouchable optical quality of the Starfire makes it a great standard test platform to make practical (as oposed to theoretical) comparisons (under enlargement) with any scope in my opinion ie if you are getting similar looking images then your scope must be bloody good :thumbsup:

- The FL of the Starfire is 1300mm comapared to 1181mm for the AG12
- The image scale with the ProLine16803 and the Starfire is 1.4"/pix compared to 1.6"/pix with the AG12
- The mirror in the AG12 is a native F4 and the Wynne corrector has a 0.95X reduction

Mike

[strongmanmike]

Cheers Bert very cool, much appreciated! :).

I made my own comparison - bit smaller file size too so it's quicker to load but shows essentially the same thing...lots of impatient folks out there ;) :thumbsup:

Mike

[Rigel003]

Sorry to not have commented on these earlier Mike. Looks like a great scope. The Omega Centauri image is just amazing! Probably the best of seen. When you're all up and running it's going to be scary good.

[CometGuy]

Mike,

Very envious of you, such a huge field of view! Is the Corrector/Reducer the Keller one or an AG design?

Terry

[Satchmo]

Thanks Mike- With most of the useful light of a 12" falling within an 0.75" circle, assuming good optics you will probably need to use a 2X converter and good seeing and guiding to exploit the resolution difference inherent between a 6" and 12" 'scope with this camera.

[Leonardo70]

Congratulations Mike for the first light ... the cluster are simply wonderful. Wait for the next shots...

Great work on squared the 16803 ... i'm scared only to think about :)

I'm looking for the 8" AG ... budget are short :rolleyes:

[avandonk]

It is not often the mature age student can help the master.
:)
So show us your gifs!

Bert

[strongmanmike]

No worries Graeme, gee glad you liked the Omega Cen shot, it is so big I guess we don't often see it swimming in a sea of stars :thumbsup:



Ah yes we are all green with envy of others at some stage in this hobby huh? :lol:. The corrector is not the Keller variety, it is larger and has 4 ellements in three groups and the field specs are a little better :thumbsup:



Yes unfortuunately you are right hence my jsutification to use the Starfire as the standard candle in this situation :thumbsup:



Hi Leo

Getting the image plane perfectly square has not been acheived quite yet but it is close, I collimated using the Catseye tools only and this got it pretty close so the accuracy of the OTA and image train build must be very good and the images can only get better from here really :thumbsup:
An AG8 huh? nice idea, very portable and able to be used on a smaller mount too :)



Old man and the (imaging) Sea :P

My gifs are here (http://www.pbase.com/strongmanmike2002/image/134190322/original)

[gregbradley]

Congratulations Mike. A fabulous start. The Omega Centauri is a spectacular image.

As mentioned the star distortions are trivial. I had the same problem over Easter with my TEC180 and I only just noticed it this morning whilst doing some processing. I thought my minor elongation in the corners was flexure but now I see it as more radial than that.

I put that down more to a spacing between the corrector and the camera rather than flex. Flex would be more one side only and would not be radial out from the centre. What I see in some of the images is slight radial elongation pointing out from the centre. That would most likely be caused by incorrect metal back distance for the corrector but only out by a tad and perhaps at the limit of the correctors corrected circle??

As I say I have seen the same on a few images with my TEC mainly using a Takashashi reducer which is not designed for the TEC. But also this last weekend using the TEC flattener. The Proline is a great camera but is also a fatso and weighs a lot. I did not see any coma using the Apogee U16M. I think my spacing is slightly off for my corrector. Mine is about the same elongation as yours.

If it were flex it probably would shift from one side of the image to other when you cross the meridian. Perhaps pack out your spacer with something to see if it makes any difference. I'd suggest it would be about 3-5mm out at a guess. In my case it may be 10mm out (I do have a spacer which I thought was for the ML8300 but perhaps I got that the other way round!).

Anyway a super start and that is a very interesting comparison with the AP152. Its showing that you can get similar data in half the time or less which was the whole point of that scope right?

Greg.

[Hagar]

As I said in your other Post. Beautiful start with your new beast. You must be feeling better about it now.
I just wonder how hard it will be to collimate this fast a scope very well. Looks good so far.
Take a big breath and relax..... IT ALL WORKS.

Congratulations Mike.

[strongmanmike]

Cheers Greg :thumbsup:

Yes I tend to agree with you, the residule distortions although minor are enough to bug me and leave me thinking how much better still it could be. Allready snapping at the heels of Starfire for resolution, at least in the cetral 2/3 of the field.

How the spacing could be wrong puzzles me though as it appears to have been constructed exactly to the specs I provided Orion.?

I get the feeling that good collimation and alignment is relatively easy but the design makes getting the parameters perfectly set much harder..? had I not been so spoiled by the Starfire experience these shots would probably look essentially perfect :lol:

Yes I thought of packing out the spacer but what if it needs to be brought in..? I'll have to think on this :question:



Ah Dougie how true that is, how true that is...sighhhhhhh almost enough to become religious :)

I hope I am able to eeek that extra few % improvement out of the collimation asap...then I will be 100% happy :thumbsup:

Mike

[gregbradley]

Perhaps double check all the measurements. Do you know the exact metal back distance for the corrector? The distance of the chip from the window of the Proline is on the FLI website. From memory it is something like 31mm. I need to check my setup also for this sort of thing.

Greg.

[Phil Hart]

very exciting mike.. i find the comparison with the starfire amazing!

it seems i've pushed my Tak Epsilon 160 past its limits recently - it's an awesome match for an APS-C DSLR which has been my bread and butter, but with larger format and/or small pixel CCD the corners don't hold up so well. so i'm impressed with the quality of this nearly as fast optical system on such a large chip. very impressed.

the one challenge i'll still be following is how well your flats work once you start really pushing the system..

thanks for sharing all the info..

Phil

[mithrandir]

... and it has an "Owner's Observations" box from our own strongmanmike - with photo.

[h0ughy]

yes congrats Mike on the story in the mag.

[Zubenel]

Somewhat of a post-script Mike but that image the antennae Galaxies is a cracker Mike.ya gotta be happy with that !! Makes me look towards a Newtonian for imaging ....

Cheers

[strongmanmike]

Thanks a lot Wes :thumbsup:...err?..but why are you responding in this ancient thread :question: ..I still had a decent physique in 2011 :lol:

Mike

[Zubenel]

Because I can and its fun to keep things alive 🤣🤣. The scope is still doing well!! :eyepop: I’ve learnt to stick with a good thing , as you have . Well done 👍🏻✔️

[TrevorW]

Enough accolades from your peers, I didn't want to say anything sooner cause you head might explode - equipment is only part of the formula for producing APOD images, pristine skies, dedication and talent, are also needed, you have all the ingredients :)