Superlube or White Lithium Grease [Archive]

bartman

28-05-2011, 06:20 AM

So i have opened up the NEQ6 and had a bit of a gander at the innards.
And as per many a post on IIS, the NEQ6 has got some serious cost cutting issues with the amount of grease in both roller and tapper bearings. I did find that there was no 'black goop' bearing grease on mine. It was a clear-ish graese and in some parts had gone 'black'.
Reading the various posts about re-greasing the mount and lubricants used, I still am curious which grease to go buy. Superlube seems equal to White Lithium in the 'use this grease' stakes.
Went to Bunnings and had a look for white lithium grease but all they had was Superlube. So I bought a tube and started on the project.
After thoroughly cleaning the bearings and drying them, I started to repack them with the superlube.

Question: How much grease can a bearing bear?:P

I packed and packed, spun the bearing quite a few times, and then put even more grease on/in it, then spun again etc etc.
Do you fill it to the brim with grease?
Whats the go ?

2nd question: Superlube is more expensive than White Lithium. I think I can get 3 roller bearings and dec tapper bearing out of the one tube of Superlube. Should I do the ra in white lithium, just to save some $$$?
or stick with SL?

Any input from your experiences would be great!!!!
Thanks
Bartman

[1ponders]

28-05-2011, 07:41 AM

Ahh Bart, maybe you might want to scrape some of that lube off and repack it into the tube. On the bearing surfaces you really only need a pretty light smear. Not packed anyway. Keep it for you next half dozen or 12 lube jobs ;). Well that's the Losmandy way :)

adman

28-05-2011, 07:47 AM

there's grease and there's grease. The oil in Superlube tends to separate out - you need to find something that doesn't do that. If you PM Brundah (Dave) he will give you the name of a you-beaut grease that is good for use in mounts - I have some - but can't for the life of me remember the name....:question:

Adam

Visionoz

28-05-2011, 11:05 AM

Bart

Don't use white lithium grease either - it drys out over a period of time and separates!!!:eyepop:

HTH
Cheers
Bill

bartman

28-05-2011, 03:09 PM

Paul you only mean the roller bearings not the taper ones right? And by surface you mean just the outside??? or do you take the dust caps of and (after cleaning) apply a small amount inside?

Will do....

What have you used in the past Bill?

These are only two of the sites that I have had a look at and looks like they have used a bit of grease in the bearings....

http://www.beevo.com/Components.htm
http://www.astro-baby.com/EQ6%20rebuild%20guide/EQ6%20declination%20rebuild.htm

Thanks for your input guys!:thumbsup:

Bartman

multiweb

28-05-2011, 03:53 PM

SuperLube (PTFE) Synthetic Grease or SuperLube Spray from here (http://www.super-lube.com/).

bartman

28-05-2011, 03:59 PM

Thanks Marc, that is the one I bought:).
But Adam doesn't recommend it due to the oil separating:confused2:
Any thoughts?
Cheers
Bartman

multiweb

28-05-2011, 04:05 PM

I've used it for years on my G11. The spray on the DEC and RA bearings, the gel on the worms and gears.

astronut

28-05-2011, 04:59 PM

Another vote for Superlube.....I've used it in extreme heat and bitter cold, never let me down.:)

[1ponders]

28-05-2011, 05:14 PM

I've infact only just finished redoing the RA Axis about half an hour ago from the Mapleton Observatory. I've still got the Dec axis to go. Not fun when you find the roller bearings seized solid in the RA axis. Took a bit of persuasion and lot of degreaser and WD40 to get them suckers rolling again.

The roller bearings (inside axis) and worm/gear meshes got a light smear with the fingers (very clean fingers that have usually been in and out of degreaser and water and WD all day, but squeeky clean". I'd say pea size dob of grease if that. I find the older the bearing a bit more isn't going to hurt.

The other bearings, taper? rings? just a few small drops of oil. any outer "washer surface I either put a light smear of oil or very light smear of lube.

Mind you this is only the 4th (or fifth?? ) time I've pulled a G11 or G8 apart and each time I learn something new about the mount and its little idiosyncrasies

bartman

28-05-2011, 06:44 PM

Sooooo I might have over done it then......:lol::thanx::confused2::q uestion::confuse3:
Bartman

multiweb

28-05-2011, 07:13 PM

With bearings less is more. All they need is a thin film of grease. You don't have to pack them :)
Turp'em up then a bit of spray. All this grease will eventualy get contaminated with water/dew/dust and turn to glue. Then your mount will really labor to get from A to B.

casstony

28-05-2011, 07:37 PM

Sealed bearings I've bought over the years for motorbikes typically have very little grease in them - seems to be normal.

I regreased a mount with Superlube a few years ago (after seeing a recommendation from Bintel) and it hasn't seperated - massive improvement over the original chinese grease.

bartman

28-05-2011, 08:02 PM

Cool , thanks guys.
I'll start again!
Cheers
Bartman

multiweb

28-05-2011, 08:12 PM

Whatever you do remember these things don't spin fast but they need to spin freely. So the less grease the better. But they need to be kept super clean. Stiction is the killer. More grease+water over time = glue.

Brundah1

28-05-2011, 08:18 PM

Seeing Adam has mentioned it, for those interested, the grease I would recommend is sold in USA as Mobil One Synthetic PDS:

http://www.mobil.com/USA-English/Lubes/PDS/GLXXENGRSMOMobil_1_Synthetic_Grease .aspx

I suspect Superlube is a close relative of Mobil One although Mobil don't reveal all their secrets - but I have not seen mention of PTFE additive.

Mobil synthetic is mainly sold here to the aviation, coal and oil industries. The smallest pack is 40 x 400g price is approx $450! As an aircraft engineer I found ways of obtaining a small quantity - legally!

ScopeStuff sells the same grease as "Pete's Red Grease" 1 oz. pack USD 6 plus Intl. shipping.

"Pete's Red Grease
This is the same red grease that is supplied with several of the
Peterson Engineering kits. This synthetic grease maintains its
viscosity over a very wide temperature range, and it won't run.
Very good for lubrication of mounts, bearings, bushings, etc.
About one ounce of grease by weight, sealed in a plastic pouch.

FYI Celestron USA recommends Mobil One Grease as a fix for Celestron SCT Baffle tube grease dripping oil on the corrector plate in high ambient temp such as Arizona and Texas.

I had this happen to my CPC800, you may know the Celestron CPC carton is normally shipped and stored with the OTA facing downwards. It would appear the manufacturer applies ordinary bearing grease generously to things like baffle tubes and their grease liberates oil in high ambient temps e.g. above 30 degC.

All greases will exude some oil at the bearing contact point - that's what greases are designed to do! But Mobil Synthetic greases are temperature stable across a wide range, see the Mobil PDS: This grease will not dry out or cake! But excessive application will lead to the grease spreading where you may not want it to go - this is not oil separation.

Ponders is correct, the bearings in telescopes need just sufficient grease to coat all bearing surfaces "with just a smear"

The above applies to Mobil synthetic and I would suggest Superlube too! Being generous with grease application in G11 bearings will lead to oil (or grease) on the RA clutch disc and on the Dec clutch disc too if you store the G11 mount on its side!)

Don't "pack" grease in any of the bearing areas, that goes for CST baffle tubes too!

BTW during my 40 yr career, Qantas used Mobil Jet Oil II exclusively in all their engines (others use it too) and that is a pure synthetic oil with excellent high temperature qualities. Yes it will burn as in the A380 RR engine failure out of Singapore, but not in normal operation! I still regard Mobil as the leader in synthetic oil technology and monitoring.

Hope the above is helpful & clarifies any misnomers.

David ;)

bartman

29-05-2011, 07:22 PM

Thank you David for your in depth explanation!
I'll redo them and see how I go!
Cheers
Bart
ps and thanks too Marc!

[1ponders]

29-05-2011, 07:38 PM

You are just the man I need to talk to David. I hope Bart doesn't mind if we talk grease, in particular, old grease.

The attached image is the Dec shaft of a G11 I stripped over the weekend. The grease was like dried honey. All things being equal, how old would this grease be? I've not seen grease this dried before. Could this happen in a couple of years. The roller and taper bearings were frozen solid and I didn't think I would get one of the roller bearings moving again. There was some serious WD40 and degreaser and rotational force with a rubber handle of a hammer to get the rollers to finally move.

The mount has been permanently mounted in an observatory since it was bought. I'd be interested in your thoughts.

And Bart here's the layout of a GM8 (all but identical to a G11)

bartman

29-05-2011, 07:48 PM

Nope dont mind at all....the more to read, the more I learn I guess (even old grease stories)!!!!
More examples....the better!

Cheers....maybe a closeup pic of the bearings:confused2: (properly greased)

Anyway thanks again Paul
Bartman

multiweb

29-05-2011, 07:59 PM

Not a chance. Unless it's a really bad grease. You'll have to sand that DEC shaft to get rid of the bearing tracks. If the shaft is marked like this then the bearings have to be worse and need changing. I reckon this mount coped some serious water contamination.

TrevorW

29-05-2011, 08:51 PM

Try Teflon grease used on bike chains, gears etc

bartman

29-05-2011, 09:34 PM

Heya Trevor,
The SuperLube contains PTFE, which apparently is Teflon ( but spelled in a funny way :P:):lol: the 'p' must stand for "add 'lon' and mix the other letters)
I haven't continued yet with regressing the bearings until this thread dies.
If anything I will have a look at the local bikeshop and see what they have.
Cheers
Bartman

[1ponders]

29-05-2011, 10:21 PM

That's what I thought. The mount is around 7years old and two years ago it was sent away for a regrease and service. This is the first time I've looked at it since it came back. The large round aluminium bushes that sits inside the large round taper bearings under the large gear had grooves worn in it from the edges of the bearings. I'll have to see if losmandy have replacements for it. I've lightly sanded the edges but there is a significant gap now between the edges of the aluminum bush and bearings. I'd replace the roller bearings inside the axis' but I they are press fitted and I doubt I have the tools to remove them.

These bearing are very different to the EQ6 ones Bart but I'd imaging the same rules apply. The idea is to lubricate, not pack (they aren't car wheel bearings). If I get a chance tomorrow to get a pick I'll grab one, but the roller bearings are press fitted in the axis bore and not easy to get, a piccie of the amount of grease could be a challenge but. I'll see what I can do though. If you were to look at it though you wouldn't see any obvious lumps of grease.

this might help
http://www.astro-baby.com/EQ6%20rebuild%20guide/EQ6%20Strip%20Down%20Home.htm

multiweb

29-05-2011, 10:37 PM

The aluminium bushes are part of the bearing. That's the bearing track. Doesn't matter if it's marked. You get two new ones when you buy a new bearing anyway. The important thing is that the shaft marking are not too deep as to still show even after a light sanding. Otherwise you have to get a new shaft and that could be an expensive exercise. To recap bearings are consumables, you lub them then change them if needed. No big deal. If you got the wrong type of grease then wear happens and if the bearings start wearing out other critical mechanical parts in the mount then you have an (expensive) problem. It only takes 1min tops to remove a DEC or RA shaft on a G11 and check the bearings, or spray a bit of WD40 in there and run them with your fingers. You could do that every month if you wanted to. No need to even remove the worm blocks for a quick service.

bartman

29-05-2011, 10:44 PM

Thanks Paul, that link is one of the reasons why I asked about the 'packing' of bearings. In my #5 post I mentioned her link. In this (http://www.astro-baby.com/EQ6%20rebuild%20guide/EQ6%20declination%20rebuild.htm) part of her rebuild 3/4 down the page you will see how much grease is on the taper bearing....this is what confused me. It looks to me like its PACKED!!!!!
So hence the confusion:shrug:.
To me -yours, Adam,David and Marc et al, make more sense than what she has done. ( BTW she must have been nervous doing this cause she has bitten all her nails to the bone:eyepop::rofl:)

Bartman

Visionoz

29-05-2011, 10:58 PM

Hey Bart

I use the same SuperLube grease (gel in a grey tube) - the best way is to use "just enough" for the tapered roller bearings; ie not too much, not too little - I think what you has shown in the picture which you did for yours looks OK to go; just MHO

HTH
Cheers
Bill

bartman

29-05-2011, 11:53 PM

Heya Bill,
ummm in those pics I packed and packed till it was squeezing out the other end of the bearing. Maybe the pics didnt show it to well?
I really over did it!

Now I'm even more confused!!!!!!:eyepop:

Eventhough what I said in post #25 (" make more sense than what she has done") , I cant see why packing it full of grease would do it harm now that I have thought about it a bit more. Its slow rotating.
Yes I can understand that more grease might attract more particles that could contaminate it (including H2O)....but the mount ( or should I say bearing enclosures) is more or less sealed.?

I'm still going with the thin approach and see how that goes.
eventually.........
Bartman

Brundah1

30-05-2011, 04:57 PM

G'day Ponders,

The dried grease on the shaft does look very old - re-greased two years ago? I doubt it! Grease takes quite some time to get that hard. That type of hard grease residue can occur on wheel bearings subject to water ingress (eg car wheel bearings, but they involve the heat factor was well).

Read the Mobil One PDS - one very important characteristic - it resists "water washout"!

However when you apply just a smear of grease as has been discussed, there will be a very small "reservoir" of oil in the grease applied, so clay based greases such as wheel bearing grease will dry out prematurely.

Have you tried acetone to soften the residue? I'd be reluctant to get too heavy handed with wet and dry paper as you may do permanent injury to the close tolerance components.

So back on the synthetic grease - remember in operation this stuff spreads easily, so use "just a smear". I doubt Mobil One Grease will ever dry out, but use too much and it will sure leak out!

Hope that helps,

David

[1ponders]

30-05-2011, 05:44 PM

thanks David, but the wet and dry was for a heavily gouged enter bush :( and just to take the sharp edges off. I won't be taking it to the shaft anytime soon. All the old grease finally came out and the bearings are moving freely. I'll be getting replacements for if possible as soon as possible. The only ones that worry me to get out are the press fitted ones in the RA and Dec.

Yeah that's what I thought, regreased??? I don't think so. Original grease from 7 years ago more like it.

Visionoz

30-05-2011, 09:18 PM

Yep the photos do lie!:eyepop:

"Just enough" mate! If you look at layer of grease you had covering on the outside of the rollers in the pic (assuming that you didn't pack all that other amount elsewhere - you probably followed Beevo's tute), I supoose you give that a twirl around a few times and that would spread nice and even and that's it mate!

Even if you had it packed full it just would be a bit "sticky" causing stiction but I don't reckon that's going to ruin the movement of the rotation at all as the servo motor has a lot of torque and the Superlube is not like treacle/molasses and become very very viscous and sticky over time - haven't seen this kind of grease doing it anyway before - I might be wrong and I'm sure if that's the case it'll be pointed out by others with more expertise that I!:D

HTH
Cheers
Bill

Brundah1

30-05-2011, 11:03 PM

Ponders wrote
"The only ones that worry me to get out are the press fitted ones in the RA and Dec."

Yes me too, an old style "solid" bearing puller should do the trick. If it still won't budge apply low heat from a gas torch to only the bearing and try the puller again.

Better still if you have a local engine builder, they may have a 20T press and bearing plates - then again how much clearance is there?

I'm sure you would agree, nothing worse than hammer bruises on you beaut Losmandy shaft!

BTW thanks for those pics of the G11 Mechano set.

D :thumbsup:

[1ponders]

31-05-2011, 06:50 AM

I very much doubt there would be a hammer come anywhere near that lovely finish. I'm sure one of the machine shops in town would be able to remove them and then replace the new ones.

:lol: Yeah i love the way the G8 and 11 just fall apart and go back together. I could likely do a disassemble and reassemble in my sleep these days. :) I particularly like how once the motors are removed the whole lot can be immersed in degreaser and then washed in warm soapy water then rinsed, dried and regreased. Makes it too easy.

multiweb

31-05-2011, 09:15 AM

Hmm...couple of things here... :question:

1_ I wouldn't apply heat to the bearing. It will expand. To place large bearings in mining equipment (10kg and over) we used to keep them in the freezer for a couple of hours then drop them in place. Besides the inside of the RA shaft is some kind of very soft metal, likely bronze..

2_ Very easy to get a bearing out. You just need to tap it gently. As long as it's square to the tube it's fitted in it will slide.

In the worst case scenario if the bearing is sticking to the walls you can use a small press to crack the seal but my guess is that a few gentle taps will dislodge it. Then it will move.

Just get a long threaded rod from Bunnings or other hardware store, let's say 500m long, M14 and two nuts. Cut a little piece of steel that would be just a bit under the diameter of the bearing and thread it in the middle with the rod attached. Then all you need is a heavier piece of tube (mass) to hammer/tap against the other nut. You'll get it out no problem.

If this still doesn't work there are a number of tools to remove bearings that you can find in any automotive mechanical shop.

Good luck. :)

[1ponders]

31-05-2011, 11:43 AM

:confuse3: I reacon I could just about manage that Marc. How about seating them back in? I like your idea of putting them in the freezer for a couple of hours.

Zaps

31-05-2011, 03:37 PM

One of those howtos is basically nothing more than a copy of the other, so it's not surprising they both used similar quantities of grease.

multiweb

31-05-2011, 03:48 PM

Do you have a mate of yours who has a lathe? You could get a block of plastic machined as a cylinder to knock them out and back in.

[1ponders]

31-05-2011, 04:53 PM

I could likely find a piece of PVC or poly pipe the right diameter

multiweb

31-05-2011, 05:30 PM

Could work but you need a big enough surface to hammer on with a rubber mallet and something that's not going to flare in the shaft and transfer the shock to the bearing exposed surface. Tube wall might be too thin.

We had some soft plastic bits. They're between plastic and rubber kind of material. Polypipe might be a bit too hard and brittle.

Anyway whichever way you're going to do this take your time, keep everything inline and it'll come out nicely once it starts moving. Bearings are not rocket science. The only time they'll jam is if you kink them off axis and they bite in. Then you're gone. So litlle taps, bits by bits. You'll feel it when you do it.

Another thing that might help is a bit of acetone in a syringe and wet the line between the bearing and the bronze, let it soak. That should help loosen up any stiction to start with. Acetone gets into anything by capillarity.

[1ponders]

31-05-2011, 05:43 PM

Ok so I might have to go for Class 12 or high pressure ;) I hear what your saying about the brittleness of the bar. I have experienced the odd, one or three off center removals and putting back ons, over the years so I know where you are coming from there. Nothing like trying to get two bits of similar smooth material to part company when they jam. Glass springs to mind :rolleyes:

Ok i'll remember the acetone

peter_4059

31-05-2011, 06:28 PM

Paul,

I'm not sure of the arrangement of the bearings that you are talking about but I had issues with my EQ6 and Bob Grimes made a tool to remove and re-install them. This really made light work of it. Have a look in this thread

http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=55025&highlight=hypertune

[1ponders]

31-05-2011, 06:50 PM

Interesting tool peter, I see how it works. He's a clever man, Bob. Basically I can get to the inside lip of the bearing and drive it from behind if i need to. and then mount over to drive the new one in. But I'll be driving .....slowly and gently. When i do it :D

By the way thanks for the link to your thread. You did a fantastic job. I've made it a sticky in the DIY forum. :thumbsup:

Paul Haese

31-05-2011, 11:39 PM

PME's run on Lubriplate 105 grease. Nice grease and I can highly recommend it.

peter_4059

01-06-2011, 06:08 AM

Paul,

The way Bob's tool worked was you simply tighten the nut on the threaded rod to press the bearing in - ie no hammering. The tool ensures the bearing goes in (and comes out) straight.

frolinmod

01-06-2011, 05:04 PM

Oh, now you've done it! I wrote the same thing on Cloudy Nights last year and was ripped to shreds by the inhabitants thereof. Lubriplate 105 is recommended by Software Bisque for the Paramount line of mounts. That may or may not make it good for other mounts.

Paul Haese

01-06-2011, 06:15 PM

Would love to be ripped a new one Ernie. Yes might not work for some mounts.:)

bartman

03-06-2011, 04:58 AM

K.... so I've de-greased and " unpacked" the bearings.
Used hydrocarbons and then a good wash in hot hot soapy water. Rinse and rinse again.
Then I thought I would speed up the drying process by putting them ( the bearings ) into the oven at a low heat.
Got them out of the oven to cool down for a bit .
Low and behold:eyepop:......oxidization happened on the roller bearings. Not so much on the tapper ones, but just a little.

+1 Marc for the spray Superlube. I wiped off the 'rust' as much as I could see, and sprayed ye ol Superlube. Works a treat.
Spinin' like a top on a marble table!

Q: rust in such a short time????
wtf????

Drying at normal temp would surely result in the same:confused2:

Any thoughts?
Thanks
Bartman

multiweb

03-06-2011, 07:16 AM

Never ever put bearings in water soapy or not. You dissolve grease with oil not water. Bath them in WD40 so they soak in overnight. Not water.

As an example when you get bitumen spots on your car lower body, you can try to wash it all you want with soap it won't come off. But use a bit of table oil in a cup with a small rug and you'll wipe them off in no time.

Poita

03-02-2013, 04:44 PM

Is this the Super Lube product everyone talks about?
https://www.mektronics.com.au/index.php?option=com_virtuemart&page=shop.browse&manufacturer_id=22&Itemid=57

Poita

03-02-2013, 05:06 PM

Oh, and has anyone considered cerakoting their gears? I had the gears done in an RC car about a year ago and ran it with no grease for 6 months, and there was no sign of wear at all after that time.

Like this:
http://www.rctech.net/forum/nitro-off-road/468340-best-diff-gear-grease-2.html

Visionoz

03-02-2013, 10:11 PM

Yep except that you've to ensure that it has the PTFE in it ( eg SUP-92003
Super Lube Grease 3oz Tube) and NOT the standard grease only - Bunnings stock the SuperLube

HTH
Cheers
Bill

Graham Beazley

04-02-2013, 01:57 PM

I clean the bearings out with CRC brake cleaner from a spray can.. Does the job and leaves no residue at all. I also find this product useful for cleaning nylon/plastic gears then just blow them off with my air compressor. Once again no residue.
cheers.
Graham.

Poita

04-02-2013, 04:50 PM

Nulon do a PFTE grease that looks a lot like the Mobil Synthetic grease, might give it a try.
Our Bunnings doesn't seem to have the SuperLube.

astro_nutt

04-02-2013, 05:08 PM

I use a stub axle from a Toyota for the Azimuth bearing. When it came time to clean it I soaked the bearing, bushes, etc in kerosene overnight. With gloved hands I then wiped off all the old grease and continued to clean it off with WD 40 until no residue was left on any components. A fresh pair of gloves and I repacked with marine, (waterproof), bearing grease, just enough to cover the metal and a light smear on the bushes, etc.
Cheers!

Steffen

05-02-2013, 11:47 AM

I've recently cleaned, re-greased and adjusted my HEQ5Pro mount. After going through a lot of degreaser (the Skywatcher "glubricant" had taken on a gum like consistency) I re-greased the small sealed worm bearings with PTFE 3-in1 spray, the worms and transfer gears with white lithium grease and all larger bearings and surfaces with Mobilgrease HP.

The mount has never been running this smoothly and effortlessly before. I wasn't able to completely get rid of the start/stop snarl when slewing, there are some resonances in the mechanism that aren't easily cured.

Cheers
Steffen.