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View Full Version here: : A quick overview of the Nikon D800E camera


gregbradley
02-08-2012, 01:02 PM
I have had this camera now since about April and I have gotten to know it reasonably well (the manual is 330 pages thick though!).

I was lucky to preorder the camera early on as I was initially looking to get a 5D3. But when Nikon announced a 36mp camera I was excited by its possibilities and there was no news about the 5D3 at that time. So I preordered at ECS cameras in Dummoyne who got me a D800E fairly quickly as they are in tremendous demand.

Firstly the D800 has not had a totally smooth ride. Nikon completely underestimated the demand and most of the internet posts for the first several months (its even still going on) were about where can you get one etc etc.

Secondly there has been some quality control issues with some D800's which Nikon still hasn't acknowledged although they appear to be about to.

Firstly there were a lot of complaints about the LCD screen having a greenish colour cast. Some said this disappeared after several weeks as some glue used cures and goes clear. I don't think this is the case in all cameras as I still see some complaints about green colour casts in the LCD display (not the recorded images). Nikon's response to this was it is more accurate than previous models and it has a sensor that adjusts the display depending on the ambient light.

Second more serious issue has been left most autofocus points on some cameras being badly off. So if you focus with a left focus point on a fast lens then the image will be out of focus. Nikon is working on a fix for this and it appears they have finally come up with one with some owners reporting that Nikon totally fixed this on their camera. It isn't on all cameras and appears to be a callibration of the autofocus software problem.

Luckily mine was perfect and the display seems fine (it does have a slightly yellowish/very slightly green look compared to my Canon 40D).
Images have no colour cast. I would describe mine as perfect and no issues.

My previous cameras have all been Canon's except for my first digital DSLR which was a Nikon D70 ( because I couldn't afford a Canon 10D at the time). The D70 was an OK camera nothing special and a slight disappointment for astro work as it had bad amp glow.

I then had a few Canon 20Ds and 300D and 40D which I all loved.

The D800E model has no anti aliasing filter which is common in medium format cameras and in a few others like Leica M9, Fuji XPro 1 and Foveon Sigma cameras.

Otherwise it is not in any Canon camera nor Sony, Pentax etc DSLR. Its unique in DSLRs and is the first to offer this due to its highly resolving 38mp sensor.

The trade off for this is the AA filter reduces moire which is a pattern effect seen when the sensor resolution is less than fine patterns in an image. In about 1000 images so far I have seen moire only 3 times and even then it was correctable.

So moire which was talked about a lot with the D800E has turned out to be a non-issue. Also the D800 will also show moire under the same circumstances but not as much. Moire can also be seen in any camera not just D800's.

This camera has been a total delight and is far beyond any other camera I have used. It feels like an extremely advanced piece of gear. The autofocus is superb and fast and works in lowish light. The video is good and nice and sharp. Images are unbelievably sharp and super highly resolving as long as you shoot with faster shutter speeds.
The high ISO performance is as good as anything out there including 5D3 in RAW images.
Dynamic range is the highest of any camera and you can pull detail out of shadows with no noise that other cameras would simply show noise or banding (Canon's weak point).

Features I like about the camera:

Internal time lapse feature is fantastic and works great. It also has a deflicker routine built in.
Power on and off is wrapped around the shutter which is terrific ergonmics. Overall button layouts and menus seem to be pretty easy to use and well thought out.
Its light. There are plenty of accessories. So far the Nikon lenses have been superb and I think apart from Canon offering more choice in lenses they seem very close in regards to lens offerings and performance.

Colour is sensational. Detail is the best ever. High ISO performance is exceptional. This cameras sensor has a QE of 57% which is unbelievably high.

Auto ISO and minimum shutter speed is another good feature.

I have found a few times shooting a backlit subjuct was tricky but I believe that is a matter of changing the exposure meter settings.

So overall its been a fabulous camera so far and I know there is more it can do that I haven't explored as it is also a very complex camera as is a 5D3. These cameras have a lot of depth of ability and features.

So far I can't fault it and am thrilled with it.

In astro shots ISO6400 appears to be workable in RAW. I think higher than that you start to notice the noise but it could be controlled with post processing.

The Nikon Capture software is a bit quirky/poorly thought out, in its layout but is very good overall.

So for astro work I think it is a very viable competitor to the usual Canon EOS cameras which have dominated for so long thanks to their low noise characteristics. It would appear Nikon has closed the gap between them.

Last year if you had said you could have 36mp, low noise at high ISO, 57% QE and low read noise you would have been told it was impossible and that you should study theory of pixels/noise. Well somehow Sony has developed a sensor that does just that and this sensor is the heart of the appeal of the D800E.

I think the D800E's appeal boils down to 3 main factors: 36mp superb sharp detail resolution that virtually matches medium format cameras that cost $40,000 (apparently its created a big stir in that market),

low noise as high ISO that is above your normal camera

the widest dynamic range of any DSLR and the highest QE sensor of any DSLR (medium format are low QE, poor high ISO performing sensors that work up to ISO400 at mega sharp resolution but can't match the D800E for shadow details, high ISO noise, compactness and useability with lots of lenses and accessories).

These are 3 conflicting engineering goals and the Nikon/Sony partnership have pulled off a revolutionary camera that has changed the photographic world from here with a large leap forward that sets a new standard.

Competition is good.

Greg.

Waxing_Gibbous
02-08-2012, 02:24 PM
Shut up!! Stop it!!! Go Away!!!!
I am on the cusp of either upgrading to a 5D3 or swictching to Nikon for the high ISO quality and ergonomics.
I've shot Canon for over 30 years with no hassles and am still very happy with my 40D.
New fencing and aggie pipes for the farm forced me to sell a lot of glass and a 5D2. I still have a 24 1.4L, 200 2.6L and a 105 Macro. If all things were equal, that's glass enough to stick with one system.
However, a little spare cash has drifted my way and I am struggling here.
As I don't use AF for wide shots or Macro, I could flog the 24, the 200 and the 105 and get older MF Nikkor lenses in these ranges with enough left over for a 80-200 AFS for general purposes.
Oy vey!
But - still I feel some loyalty to my Canons.

You are not making this easier.
Desist! :D

PS - Great review anyway.

traveller
02-08-2012, 02:56 PM
Thanks for the review Greg.
I have always found Nikon's ergonomics and controls to be more intuitive than Canons, and Nikkors lenses are great at faithful colour reproduction (IMHO). But Canons sure beat Nikon when it comes to low noise/high ISO stakes. The 800/E is certainly a worthy replacement for the 700. The DP review of the 800/E is equally favourable, as your said, competition is good.
Bo

DavidTrap
02-08-2012, 03:16 PM
While I'm very happy with my d800, why wouldn't your wait for the Canon 5Dx which is supposedly 40+ MP? Supposedly due out in a couple of months.

DT

gregbradley
02-08-2012, 03:41 PM
Good points. If you are on the verge of an upgrade you also have 2 other options.

Nikon D600 rumoured to be 24mp, full frame, similar autofocus etc to D800 and around $1500! I'd say its not long to wait for that one as its been rumoured with leaked photos for some time now.

Canon bringing out a full frame for around $1999 shortly (Photokina which I think is in the later part of the year).

Later in the year perhap Canon is supposedly working on a 40+mp camera to match the D800 better.

As far as high ISO low noise Nikon D800 is equal to or better than 5D3 in RAW. In jpeg Canon uses an aggressive luminousity noise reduction that works well but gives an artifical look to the images (some may like that).
So you can shoot higher but you could do the same with the D800 and use Noise Ninja or noise reduction in post processing to achieve similar. So no winner there but the wider dynamic range of the D800 is very relevant to astro where shadows can be lifted with little noise and no banding whatsoever which can plague some Canon shots at low and very high ISO.

For astro work, 36mp is not realy relevant as the images are so massively downsized and its all about noise and amp glow etc. I think either camera is the go there or perhaps Nikon D4 or Canon 1DX.

To me either camera would be very good (5D3 or D800/E). Only D800E offers no AA filter. You would hardly be upset with either choice. It boils down to better resolution and wider dynamic range and no AA choice for Nikon and high ISO smoother jpegs, slightly better autofocus, better video for Canon. Canon's 5D3 was evolutionary and a very polished camera. Nikon's was a large jump like 5D2 was.

Greg.

Waxing_Gibbous
02-08-2012, 06:56 PM
Dave - I hate waiting. Also I'm not really an early adopter. I like to see/hear how new gear pans-out before I spend my loot. I live on a farm and everything costs five grand - even a loaf of bread!
Greg - I would probably go for the 'standard' D800 and I agree with you on Canon's NR.
Also, since the F100, I've found Nikon's ergonomics more intuitive and comfortable than Canon's.
I no longer shoot huge numbers of frames with massive telephotos - my main reason for sticking with the big 'C' - and appreciate Nikon's all crosshair at all apertures AF.
Not to mention access to all that quality MF glass. Something that really appeals to me.

But, it's not a done deal and so perhaps I will wait a little.

If only someone could 'digitise' my F1n's - bliss!

Garbz
02-08-2012, 11:48 PM
Great review Greg. I couldn't agree more with your comments. I was initially scared at the quality the D800 would bring. Megapixel count too high for noise etc, but I absolutely love it.

The biggest problem I have is DeepSkyStacker grinding to a halt and then crashing when processing 36mpxl images. Fortunately due to coma I shoot in DX mode through my scope.

gregbradley
03-08-2012, 07:29 AM
Peter, 800 or 800E is a common question on the DPreview Nikon D800 forum.

I don't see any downside to the 800E at this point and there is a slight gain. A bit more microcontrast, DXO sensor score was 1% higher, slightly better colour in dimmer areas, does not need sharpening most of the time.

D800 has a weak AA filter so many comments are its sharp enough and of course it is. But if its about moire then that is a rare phenomenon in my experience but if you image buildings, fabrics a lot then 800 would be better. Otherwise 800E is all good. 800 will show moire as well its just worse in the 800E. Moire removal tools work reasonably well and there is a good tutorial on the net about how to remove luminance moire (there's colour moire and there is luminance moire which is harder to remove).

Another handy feature is the virtual horizon. Tilted images are a thing of the past. It shows a plane like horizon ball in live view which you can turn on or off with one button once setup and also an arrow system in the view finder. Love that.

Auto ISO with minimum shutter speed is a popular feature as well.

What is the autofocus crosshairs at all apertures feature you mention?

Which medium format lenses are you referring to? Won't these also fit on a Canon?

That is another big plus for a Nikon. All earlier lenses will fit it. You get an autofocus assist when doing manual focusing where arrows appear in the viewfinder indicating which way to turn the focus ring and a circle appears when it is in focus on a manual lens. That is invaluable.

On the other hand you can get a Novoflex and others' adapter to use Nikon lenses on Canon cameras but not the other way around. Which is annoying as some Canon lenses are better than Nikon equivalents and vice versa.

Chris, file sizes are an issue. A RAW image is something like 40mb and it takes up a lot of hard disk fast.

An external hard disk drive is needed for this camera not that other cameras have tiny file sizes but the D800's are large. I haven't tried stacking images yet but I imagine you need a strong computer like an i5 on up. My FLI 16803 images are 32.4mb so I got a computer that could handle that. Its an i7. It will stack up to about 16 images at once at a stretch. Or I do 10 at a time and then stack the stacked images.



Greg.

alocky
03-08-2012, 11:25 AM
Nice review Greg. I went for the 800 over the E for cost reasons alone, and don't regret it. I suspect side by side in the real world I'm not going to see a difference at my level of skill.
As to the processing, I have finally got my new 24 CPU i7 with ssd's humming, and it's now quite fun to play with the data in near real time. Of course, now I need more data...!
As an example, my 3 year old Toshiba took 3 days to process the 110Gb of video I took during July's transit, and I have never bothered putting it into a movie because I had opted to save as tif rather than jpg. Last night I rectified that in two hours!
Anyway - loving the D800. It works quite well during the day, too.
Cheers,
Andrew.

gregbradley
03-08-2012, 12:16 PM
Congrats on your camera!

Yes, 800 versus 800E is splitting hairs for sure. The differences are very fine and you can get a similar level of sharpness using deconvolution sharpening and a small amount of colour contrast/enhance.

I just found on ebay you can get a Seagate 2 terrabyte external memory unit for $129! or a 3TB one for $189. Wow.

That'll handle the file size issue.

I also read on the net you can dial in different sizes in tiff or jpeg so the camera does 36.3mp, 20mp or 9mp in order to reduce file sizes.

TIFF is not that much of a drop from RAW so that could work too if someone were concerned about file sizes (usually its pros that don't like this as big files = more time and time=money for them).

I also like the new Olympus OMD and the Fuji XPro 1. If I were going travelling I think one of those would be great.

Greg.

Garbz
03-08-2012, 07:49 PM
The main downsides to lack of an AA filter show up if you like to do video stuff. Moire is easy enough to correct on a single frame but with video downsampling and compressing the moire effect it becomes impossible to correct where it shows up. The BBC initially issued a memorandum about the 5DmkII for that reason, it had too weak of an AA filter and was banned for use by BBC productions without seeking special permission. Mind you I think the people who buy a still camera for video are :screwy:.

I don't have an issue with file size from a storage point of view, and I should have an issue with beasty computer either. I have 16GB of RAM and DSS gets no where near this limit before it complains about being out of memory. Actually it doesn't even approach the 32bit limit of 3.5GB either so at this point I'm putting it down to a bug in DSS. My best effort so far has been 100 odd frames after a fresh reboot with only DSS running. It crashed at the end but left itself enough time to save the Autosave file :thumbsup:

Also TIFF won't help you:
Typical NEF lossless compressed: 25-45MB
NEF uncompressed: 54MB
TIFF: 105MB:eyepop:

The problem is TIFF works at 8bit or 16bit so there's quite a bit of waste compared to NEF which records the native 14bit.

My girlfriend is an Olympus shooter and she's drooling over an OMD at the moment.

gregbradley
03-08-2012, 11:56 PM
Hi Chris,

With regards to video the lack of AA filter, at least as advised by Nikon and on the Nikon sites, is that it is exactly the same as the D800.

The downsizing is so great that any moire is more from the downsizing methods used rather than AA filter or not.

That said I have noticed moire is an issue with the D800E. I haven't seen too many D800 videos to know if its only D800E or both but the advice is that the lack of AA filter makes no difference.

5D3 has less moire but both suffer from rolling shutter. D800 has brighter video for the same ISO (ISO1600 D800 = ISO3200 5D3 for some reason - higher QE?) but 5D3 goes to higher ISO with less noise but both will go to ISO6400 fairly cleanly which is pretty amazing. D800 video is sharper and 5D3 softer but most seem to want the higher low noise ISO over sharpness. Overall I get the impression that the D800 has caught up a lot with Canon on video but the 5D3 may still have the lead.

5D3 uses more of a binning approach to downsizing video whereas Nikon uses a line skipping approach. D800 has HDMI out to allow external recording which is a big plus for the semi - pros who do video. Not useful for me though.

Video ability of D800 has not been taken up much in forums. I did take a short video of Sydney CBD and it had massive moire. But family type videos had none.

Also there are plug in hardware moire filters for both cameras under development and there is one for the 5D2 that works very well. Downside is it costs US$385.

Greg.

Poita
14-09-2012, 12:54 PM
The D600 has been announced now, it is amazing that you can get full frame cameras for so little money now.

I see there is a AA filter available now for the D800E as well.

gregbradley
15-09-2012, 08:43 AM
D600 looks to be the goods and is being well received. It obviously meets a lot of people's needs.

The AA filter for D800/E you are referring to is the Mosaic Engineering one?

Its US$385 . I was planning on making my own. But I have only seen moire about 4 images out of 2000 so not worth it but if you were doing lots of video then I think its worth it.

Greg.